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Posted by: rangercal May 8 2007, 05:50 PM

Seriously... I Love Gordon.. However, the Bulls struggle when their opponent has 2 above average offensive Guards in their backcourt. Gordon can't get through screens on time, and is too weak on D to make up for the size advantage. Plus, he isn't a weapon on Offense when faced against a big backcourt.


Gordon Should ONLY play when ONE of Rip or Billups is on the Bench.
(maybe that could get him 15-20 mins and be a real spark plug in that short time span ie how Cedric Ceballos had a role with Phoenix during the early stages of his career.)

Any other team, Start Gordon. Against Detroit? 6th Man .

A Lineup I would Love to see:


Wallace-C
Prown-PF
Thomas-SF
Deng-SG
Hinrich-PG


Thoughts?
Anyone else have Ideas?

Posted by: ZoomSlowik May 8 2007, 06:05 PM

I'd MUCH rather see Thabo than Tyrus.

Posted by: rangercal May 8 2007, 06:50 PM

not against Detroit. Tyrus is at his best against the Pistons.

Posted by: TeaLeafReaderII May 8 2007, 06:52 PM

There is noone on this roster that can defend Rip on those curls. Any defensive upgrade you get, won't be worth the offensive loss. Especially with the way Prince has shut down Deng... the offense has to come from somewhere and if Gordon can't get his shot dropping, the Bulls are done.

Posted by: rangercal May 8 2007, 06:55 PM

I like Deng on Rip. Those long arms may give Rip fits. I don't think we are losing too much on O with Tyrus getting more PT and Gordon getting limited minutes.

Posted by: scatterbrain May 8 2007, 10:00 PM

With the superior scoring depth the Pistons have I just can not justify benching Gordon personally. Quickness would be what we lack in slowing Rip down more so than wingspan in my opinion. Plus, Tayshaun is very able to put up 20 or 25 points. I would maybe see Wallace-Brown-Deng-Thabo-Kirk (although I still think we need Gordon to play a lot of minutes to win) as a decent compromise.

I just want to see Gordon come alive and spread the court. That will open up Deng in his mid-range game and maybe open Kirk up for a few open 3's every so often. If we can get it going and defend the United Center its a whole new series. We only need one road win if we can protect our home.

Edit - Gordon HAS to stay out of foul trouble... especially early.

Posted by: SoxFan1 May 8 2007, 10:20 PM

I can't believe the overconfidence you guys have in Tyrus Thomas right now.

And if Deng was to guard Rip Hamilton, he'd foul out by halftime and Rip would dominate. Deng isn't fast enough to chase him around those tight curls.

Posted by: 72-10 May 8 2007, 10:30 PM

Webber has been the biggest reason we cant stop those curls. They really are not so much well executed as it is Wallace not being able to fill the middle. They spread the floor so well and we have to honor Rasheeds and Webbers shots so much that we cant fill the lane to stop hamilton, etc. I think our D needs to re-assess (sp?) itself and we need to take care of the ball better. Everything else would fall into place then...if its not already too late

Posted by: rangercal May 8 2007, 10:44 PM

it would not be the first time a team put a long winged player on a big shooting guard. I highly doubt Luol would be in foul trouble any faster than Gordon on Rip. It would probably work.

Posted by: BobDylan May 9 2007, 01:30 AM

Luol Deng doesn't have the speed or ball handling to play the guard position. Probably doesn't have the speed to D up a guard either. The obvious choice to man one of Billups and Hamilton is Thabo, but he provides very little from the offensive end.

The Bulls are pretty much screwed in terms of size in this series. But those first two games made look Ben Gordon a lot more expendable in order to bring in a big man next year. Either way, I don't think the Bulls can go into next year having not upgraded their size. P.J. Brown needs to be replaced with a threat, and one of Gordon/Hinrich needs to be replaced with some size. (Preferably Gordon--Kirk may not be the scorer Ben is, but Kirk can score points and pose as a threat and he plays stellar defense. He could cut down on turnovers, though.)

Going to be an interesting off-season, this series is very telling as where the Bulls stand. They're close, but still a long ways away.

Posted by: eddog2 May 9 2007, 08:15 AM

Why not bench Kirk for Thabo? Kirk's been sucking it up way worse than Gordon. Anyway, we don't need to bench either. Kirk and Gordon will have a much better game 3 at home. The crowd will carry the team.

As for Tyrus, I think he should start, but if he does, we have no explosion off the bench. Nocioni looks like a limp duck out there. Hopefully he can find his shot and his defense.

Posted by: Serbbojo May 9 2007, 12:40 PM

tyrus had one good half. Besides starting Tyrus now when he may have finally gotten comfortable will just make him more nervous.

Posted by: ZoomSlowik May 9 2007, 01:56 PM

In the regular season maybe, definitely not so far in the playoffs. The only time he was productive was when the game was basically over already. With Thabo in there guarding either Rip or Prince they might actually have a chance, I sure as hell don't want Tyrus on those guys...



The last thing we need to do is make our team ball-handling WORSE...

Kirk was actually decent in the first game, didn't contribute to the turnover-fest and shot well. If anything he probably needed to put up MORE shots, he was hitting. He couldn't do spiff in the second game though...

Posted by: TeaLeafReaderII May 9 2007, 03:24 PM

Its not so much confidence in Tyrus as it is lack of confidence in our other options. Nocioni is playing cosmically bad. Just awful. I don't know if his plantar facitis is acting up or if the month or two without practice is finally catching up to him.... The other reasonable option is PJ Brown, who has looked really old. And for some damn reason he is passing out of open looks. That leaves us with Sweetney, Allen, or Kryhapa... I'm not even going to bother with them.... or a 3 guard lineup.

Personally I want Skiles to keep running out PJ, but I can understand why someone would rather see an unknown quality like Tyrus out there.

Posted by: Chicago Bulls Franchise May 9 2007, 06:53 PM

You throw EVERYTHING away once you get into the postseason. You go with what is working and you ride it. Right now even after one game, Tyrus's play should earn him atleast more playing time based on his performance of last game and the regular season. Same goes for Thabo.

Posted by: SoxFan1 May 9 2007, 09:33 PM

Hmm.

Posted by: AirScott May 10 2007, 07:41 PM

or keep Gordon in.

take P.J. Brown out. we can't trade him anymore, he doesn't do much for us now.

Posted by: CubbiesFan07 May 10 2007, 09:34 PM

i dont understand why tyrus didnt play more. he rocked the 1st quarter and was benched the rest of the game in place for pj brown who did absolutely nothing 2nd half.

gordon should be 6th man for sure.
and where was duhon this game wtf?

Posted by: SoxFan1 May 10 2007, 09:38 PM

Who did ANYTHING in the 2nd half? What happened to the ball movement? What happened to the aggressiveness? What happened to the defense?

Posted by: rangercal May 10 2007, 09:39 PM

I would have liked to see Tyrus and Thano out there myself. Noch and PJ know how to drive me insane.

Posted by: CubbiesFan07 May 10 2007, 09:40 PM

when noch hits he hits em all. this entire series hes been a joke idk why hes getting this much playing time. he got more than thabo and tyrus combined

Posted by: eddog2 May 10 2007, 10:45 PM

You can't move the ball when your PG dribble all over the place and doesn't pass. Norm Van Leer even said that Captain Kirk needs to stop dribbling and keep the ball movement going. I think me and Norm see eye to eye on Captain Kirk. He plays just like Captain Hook, with Something missing from his game!

Posted by: SoxFan1 May 10 2007, 10:49 PM

Don't let Ben off the hook on overdribbling either. Ben tried too much iso in the 2nd half and had a few turnovers on travels and botched dribbles. He was the main reason the Pistons started coming back. He was the 1st to over dribble, then the offense went stagnant. Blaming Kirk and Ben is different though. 95% of the time, when Ben overdribbles, its because he is trying to isolate. 95% of the time when Kirk overdribbles, it's because the offense is stagnant so he can't get the entirety of the blame.

Posted by: ChWRoCk2 May 10 2007, 10:50 PM

Noch just kept missing shots.

He gets the ball and immediately puts it up or drives to the hoop. Too inconsistent on offense.

Not to mention he missed two key free throws that would have put us down 3 or 2 I believe.

I would have loved to see him on the bench but Skiles is just in love with his defense and he was grabbing some boards.

Posted by: eddog2 May 10 2007, 10:51 PM

That's fine. You can keep your Kirk support up for the rest of your life. I really don't care if we trade Kirk and Ben in a package although I think Ben would be a better player if we had a real PG.

Who wouldn't stand around when you PG dribble the hell out of the ball and then shoots a 3. Kirk made the one 3 and got happy. Then missed his next 3 3's.

Posted by: SoxFan1 May 10 2007, 10:53 PM

If Noc didn't launch 4 three's tonight, he would have had a decent stat line. He was 2/3 on shots that weren't 3's and he had ZERO turnovers.

Posted by: eddog2 May 10 2007, 10:56 PM

You really need to change your line to "Kirk Hinrich is so F'in overrated"

Posted by: SoxFan1 May 10 2007, 10:56 PM

What are you talking about? It's not Kirk support, I'm just trying to argue your hate for him. He damn near had a triple-double. 3 turnovers in 47 minutes, I'll take that most of the time. Besides, most of the time, Ben's buckets come from the pull-up in transition, or him creating a shot for himself. The rest of the time, he's hitting the jumper on the curl at the top of the key...guess who's feeding him those passes. Yeah, Kirk Hinrich.

Posted by: rangercal May 10 2007, 11:00 PM

^^^^

Posted by: SoxFan1 May 10 2007, 11:00 PM

That makes even less sense. When Kirk overdribbles, it's not because he trying to create a shot for himself. It's because he is waiting for someone to come off a screen. When no one runs, he cant pass it, so what else does he have to do but dribble?

Posted by: eddog2 May 10 2007, 11:07 PM

7 games of the playoffs,

Kirk Hinrich

37.8% FG, 10.57 PPG, 5.85 APG, 9-28 from 3 (32%), 6 stls (.85 stls) (The only thing he's done well is shoot free throws. But he can't even draw fouls effectively. He's gone to the line 11 times in 7 games. That's just stupid. Quit being a girl and get some contact down low.)


Baron Davis

26.3 PPG, 54% FG, 43.5% 3pt, 6.0 APG, 2.0 SPG (51 free throw attempts)


Deron Williams

18.0 PPG, 44.9% FG, 25.8% 3pt, 9.0 APG, 1.22 SPG, (37 free throw attempts)

Steve Nash

18.7 PPG, 46.1% FG, 45% 3pt, 13.4 APG, (29 free thows)


It's just rediculous that the most important player on our team gets outplayed this bad by the premiere PG's in the league. I don't mind the scoring but the other stuff he is/isn't doing is hurting our team.

Posted by: SoxFan1 May 10 2007, 11:14 PM

Baron Davis is GS's #1 option. Nash is a 2-time MVP. Deron Williams is a budding Super Star. Those comparisons don't do him justice.

Posted by: rangercal May 10 2007, 11:20 PM

from nbadraft.net http://nbadraft.net/index.asp?content=mock2003
2003 MOCK Draft

1. Cleveland Lebron James 6-8 245 PG/SG Akron OH HSSr.
2. *Detroit Darko Milicic 7-1 253 PF (Serbia-Montenegro) 1985
3. Denver Carmelo Anthony 6-7 234 SF Syracuse Fr.
4. Toronto Chris Bosh 6-11 210 PF Georgia Tech Fr.
5. Miami Kirk Hinrich 6-4 190 PG Kansas Sr.
6. *LA Clippers Chris Kaman 7-0 255 C Central Michigan Jr.
7. Chicago Dwyane Wade 6-5 212 SG Marquette Jr.

Posted by: eddog2 May 10 2007, 11:21 PM

Who you want to compare him to? Tony Parker? Parker is playing better.

Rafer Alston? If you say Rafer Alston I'll laugh. He's going to be making $11 million next year. Find me an $11 million PG that's worse. I'm sure you can with maybe Mike Bibby. But even then I'd have an argument.

And lets keep the 2 rejects from New York out of the equation. Stephon at one time was twice the player Kirk is but that is no longer true.

Williams is in his second season and he makes Kirk look like the rookie.

Posted by: TeaLeafReaderII May 10 2007, 11:35 PM

Meh... Bulls as a team hit 33%... and no one really had a good game. Trying to pin the blame on one player is stupid. Ben Wallace wasn't enough to get us over the hump. Next year he is going to be a year older... while Tyson Chandler is going to be a year better. I think we can stop with all the Paxson is a genious talk.

Posted by: eddog2 May 10 2007, 11:42 PM

We have good team, we just don't have a great team. I love Tyson. I admit that Wallace did a much better job on Shaq than Tyson did. But I always said that Tyson's really a PF not a Center. I hated that the Bulls played him at center. Tyson has to be paired next to a 4 or 5 that has a post game and an offensive game in general. That's why he was so effective with Curry. When Curry was gone there was nobody there to help him. Imagine how good he'd be if he played next to Tim Duncan!

Either way, the Bulls have a good team. I'm not blaming Kirk for everything, I'm just saying Kirk is not the answer for this team. Without a true superstar such as McGrady who can get doubled and create for players, the team needs a true PG that can drive, create for teammates, and effectively control the tempo of the game. Kirk's not a great PG. He'll never be. So unless you can find me a superstar that can be like McGrady, then Kirk has to go. Pray that Kevin Durant is that guy and we get him.

Posted by: TeaLeafReaderII May 10 2007, 11:50 PM

Tyson is playing center in Nawlans and looking pretty dang good. He... like most big men... just needed more time to develop.

Gordon/Kirk/Thabo is going to be a great back court... They just need a post player... that should have been taken care of before the deadline this year... now they need to fix it this offseason.


Although I'm pretty excited for the first team in the history of the NBA to come back from three down in a 7 game series.

Posted by: eddog2 May 11 2007, 12:00 AM

I'm praying with you buddy that they pull off 4 straight.

As for the Tyson comment, that's what I was talking about. He plays well b/c he has David West to play off of. It also didn't hurt that for a good part of the season he had a real PG he was playing with (Paul).

Posted by: Chicago Bulls Franchise May 11 2007, 07:33 AM

Kirk is a very poor version of Steve Nash, and thats the only comparison I can think of at the moment.

Posted by: Balta1701-B May 11 2007, 09:57 AM

Look people, when you're comparing your point guard to a 2 time MVP, your point guard isn't going to look that great. You're comparing Kirk Hinrich to the best offensive weapon in the NBA right now (his only competition is Kobe). If this were baseball, it'd be like saying that you should dump a gold glove defensive player because he doesn't produce nearly as many runs as Bonds or Thome.

A team can't have an all star at every single position on their roster and have the cap room to hold together for more than a year or two. Mr. Hinrich is not a dominant offensive point guard, but he is at worst a solid point guard on offense and a dominant point guard on defense.