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Posted by: puckthefistons Jul 12 2006, 11:27 AM

I am just throwing this out there because we are in a lull and I am tired of hearing about Wilcox and Butler.

Lebron and DWade just signed 3 year deals, which would allow them to become free agents. Big Ben's contract would have 1 year left on it at that point.
Both have obvious aspirations to be a Bull one day, to varying degrees (Lebron's want to be Michael, DWade from Chi).

Dare I say we could have both?
No, Prolly not... but what if? I'm expecting eventually that in some league a couple top notch players will decide it's not just about the $$$ (they can still get huge endorsements anyway, more than they would playing) and team up to create a unstoppable duo. Imagine Hinrich Wade Lebron Deng Wallace. Imagine.

It'll most likely never happen, but it's fun to dream...

Posted by: taurus515th Jul 12 2006, 11:37 AM

i think D-Wade is overrated. Lebron is the real thing tho. But i like who we have on our team now and when we get a decent post player we will not need them.

Posted by: cars Jul 12 2006, 11:37 AM

That's some great Bulls Kool Aid there. I wouldn't mind it, but...

The one who has the outside shot of leaving is Lebron. Dwayne loves Miami and the opportunity they gave him. Shaqs contract will almost be up at that point, giving Miami cap flexibility again to go ahead and get him help. He also quickly jumped on his extension as he knows he could win 1 more championship before a rebuilding is necessary.

The more interesting decision will be Lebron. We all know that he desperately wants to bring a championship team to Cleveland. But at some point he's got to start wondering whether or not the staff in Cleveland can do that. They've got no draft picks next year, they've draft poorly outside of Lebron (Luke Jackson, etc.). They gave big money to Ilgauskus, Larry Hughes, and soon Gooden. Other signings like Donyell Marshall and Damon Jones haven't worked out.

Is this team any better than they were last year? No...I think they have a 3 year window to show them that they can build a winning team. That means they've got 3 years to add a wingman to Lebron...

The pressure on Lebron to stay in Cleveland is huge...he better wear teflon back there if he ever leaves.

Posted by: taurus515th Jul 12 2006, 11:43 AM

watch these- http://youtube.com/watch?v=uxV5BGIJkeQ&search=luol%20deng
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Z9KbVzafw1A&search=ben%20gordon

just imagine if our guys get consistent this coming up season which i have faith they will

http://youtube.com/watch?v=o_--5Jupt6I&search=ben%20gordon

Posted by: ZoomSlowik Jul 12 2006, 11:47 AM

You're kidding, right? Did you watch the playoffs at all? How many guys average 27 points, 6 boards, and 7 assists over the course of the year? The guy just won a ring and basically carried his team in the finals. He's easily one of the top 10 players in the league, and that's probably too conservative.

It's still at least 3 years before we have any kind of shot at these guys, so I wouldn't get too excited just yet. I can't imagine that we'd have enough cap space for both, especially if Hinrich, Deng and Wallace are still around.

Posted by: southsider2k5 Jul 12 2006, 11:54 AM

No.

next question.

Posted by: taurus515th Jul 12 2006, 11:58 AM

Thank u somebody else besides me doesnt want them either.

Posted by: southsider2k5 Jul 12 2006, 12:00 PM

Its not that I don't want them, its just not going to happen. All of these star players are only signing 3 year deals because the collective bargaining agreement is up in 3 years, and the greedy bastards want to make sure if the max $ deal goes up, that they don't miss out on a dime of it. Its not because they want to leave their teams, or go to another team, its all about money.

Posted by: SleepyWhiteSox Jul 12 2006, 12:02 PM

In 3 years...

PG- Kirk
SG- Wade
SF- LeBron
PF- KG
C- Ben Wallace


I like it.

Posted by: taurus515th Jul 12 2006, 12:02 PM

o lol.

Posted by: RememberThe90's Jul 12 2006, 12:04 PM

wow...just wow.

Posted by: taurus515th Jul 12 2006, 12:07 PM

ok yall do not to believe me about how i think D-Wade is overrated. All D-Wade has to do is throw up any kind of shot and the refs call it a foul. We will all c how good D-Wade is going to be caring a team without Shaq.

Posted by: ZoomSlowik Jul 12 2006, 12:17 PM

Okay, so what about the other 18+ points (actually 19.6 in the playoffs) per game he gets? Even if you take out free throws entirely for him, he outscored every player on the Bulls.

And Kobe's peformance sure seems to be suffering without Shaq... That's even less of a factor in Wade's case. Although Shaq is still good, he's nowhere near the dominant force that he used to be, and he was a minor factor in the Finals, averaging under 14 a game and finishing in single digits twice.

Posted by: Kalapse Jul 12 2006, 12:26 PM

Please ignore the effortless penetration behind the curtain.

Posted by: sport1016 Jul 12 2006, 01:48 PM

It couldn't be more unrealistic to think we could even afford let alone attract both players, but it is very possible that at least one of their situations will lend itself to the possibility. With all the old guys on the heat besides wade, and maybe wanting to play at home, they could struggle a bit in a couple years and it could end up working out very well for us.

Posted by: RememberThe90's Jul 12 2006, 02:02 PM

Wade kinda dissed chicago in a sun times article a few weeks back.

basically said he was glad he was not drafted by the bulls.

Posted by: sport1016 Jul 12 2006, 02:11 PM

Not really. He said something like that but it was one of those diplomatic phrases meaning he was happy that he ended up in the situation he ended up in (with shaq as title contenders). Not that he didn't want to be in chicago, but that he got lucky that he ended up going to a team that became elite only a year after he was drafted.

He was reflecting on his luck as opposed to dissing chicago. That is overstating it a bit.

Posted by: taurus515th Jul 12 2006, 02:31 PM

Wut r u talking about. i wouldnt be to sure on that i took the time to prove to u that if both D-Wade's and 1 of our core players performances against each other was strictly on points and not free throws our guys would actually have a higher scoring then D-Wade. if you subtracted D-Wade's points from his ftm and 1 of our core players points from from their ftm who would have the most points in the game. To me the real talent is not when u almost get half of the points u make in a game come free shots at the free throw line. Also when D-Wade plays bad against us they always use the excuse he does not play well in Chicago no its because Kirk Hinrich (something rare in the league with other guards) actually plays defense against him instead of him once again getting free shots all the time because player leave him open or he gets to just run into someone standing in a spot before he drove to the lane to try and get contact.

Taking off both players free throws made

Game 1

Ben Gordon

45 min/ 12-23 fgm-a/ 5-10 3pm-a/ 6-7 ftm-a/ 35 pts

D-Wade

45 min/ 8-21 fgm-a/ 0-1 3pm-a/ 14-16 ftm-a/ 30 pts


Ben Gordon wins he had 35 points so u subtract 6 points he made from free throws and that is 31 points

D-Wade lose he had 30 points so u subtract 14 points he made from the free throw line and that is 16 points

Game 2

Andres Nocioni

40 min/ 13-15 fgm/ 3-3 3pm-a/ 1-1 ftm-a/ 30 pts

D-Wade

44 min/ 10-20 fgm/ 0-1 3pm-a/ 1-1 ftm-a/ 21 pts

Andres Nocioni wins he had 30 points so u subtract 1 point he made from the free throw line and thats 29 points

D-Wade lose he had 21 points so u subtract 1 point he made form the free throw line and that is 20 points

Game 3 ( the players blamed the refs and said that they were cheat but the team as a whole is bad if they do not get to the line the whole team shot 31-89 fgm-a)

Ben Gordon

43 min/ 8-18 fgm/ 3-6 3pm/ 5-8 ftm-a/ 24 pts

D-Wade

41 min/ 9-22 fgm/ 8-9 3pm/ 8-9 ftm-a/ 26 pts

Ben Gordon wins he had 24 points so u subtract 5 points he made from the free throw line and that is 19 points

D-Wade lose he had 26 points so u subtract 8 points he made from the free throw line and that is 18 points

Game 4

Ben Gordon 23 points minus 3 free throws is 20 points

D-Wade 20 points minus 4 free throws is 16 points

Ben Gordon wins and D-Wade lose

Game 5

D-Wade did beat us on the statistics

Game 6

Ben Gordon and Nocioni won

Ben Gordon

36 min/ 7-18 fgm-a/ 2-6 3pm-a/ 5-9 ftm-a/ 21 pts

Ben Gordon wins he had 21 points and if u subtract 5 points he made from the free throw line that is 16 points

Andres Nocioni

33 min/ 7-10 fgm-a/ 2-5 3pm-a/ 4-5ftm-a/ 20 points

Andres Nocioni also wins he had 20 points and if u subtract 4 points he made from the free throw line that is 16 points.

D-Wade

38 min/ 7-12 fgm-a/ 2-3 3pm-a/ 7-8 ftm-a/ 23 points

D-Wades lose he had 23 points and if u subtract 7 from the free throw line that is 13 points.

Overall D-Wades high scoring points were more from hitting free shots then the actual talent from hitting shots from anywhere on the court. If Ben Gordon or Andres Nocioni scored more points from anywhere on the court instead of free shots think about it when the Bulls players become consistent and get a post-player.

Posted by: SoxFan1 Jul 12 2006, 02:34 PM

All I see is "Blah blah blah blah blah."

In the end, only 1 thing matters...


BTW, in Game 6, 23 - 7 = 16.

Posted by: taurus515th Jul 12 2006, 02:43 PM

D-Wade without Shaq

Posted by: ZoomSlowik Jul 12 2006, 02:44 PM

How is 8.8 almost half of 27.4? Are you really trying to make conclusions about one head-to-head series, which is an incredibly small sample size? Even in that series, only 7.2 of his 24.7 per game came from the line, which is actually under his average. So now it's Wade's fault that none of our guys shoot a lot of free throws and he does? Attack the paint more and it isn't an issue.

So a couple of our guys got hot for one series. That means spiff, especially since we lost. Your math is off anyways, only one of those games is even close to half his total. When only 4 guys on your roster play 25 minutes or more, some of them are going to have good numbers. Even Miami had 6 guys do that.

Get a clue. Wade has a ring and a finals MVP, none of our guys do. He's a lot better than anything we have.

Posted by: SoxFan1 Jul 12 2006, 02:48 PM

Also, to add, you can't compare Wade's performances to the entire "core" of the Bulls squad. That doesn't make sense. "Nocioni wins, Gordon wins..." No, make it Nocioni vs Wade for each game or Gordon vs Wade for each game.

Posted by: ZoomSlowik Jul 12 2006, 02:51 PM

Please don't encourage him to make another monster post that means nothing.

Posted by: taurus515th Jul 12 2006, 02:53 PM

for one thing i didnt say that i said most of his games he plays he hits almost half of his scoring from the free throw line.

dont try and find one thing i might have said wrong(which i didnt) to prove me wrong because u just got voted administrator for best post and all or wutever and u know i just proved u wrong about how u said that D-Wade gets more points then any of our players without counting free throws.


So its just my opinion i think hes overrated and always will.

Posted by: taurus515th Jul 12 2006, 02:54 PM

because the guy or lady i was arguing with said he could out scoring everybody on our team without scoring free throws. And to prove a point i did.

Posted by: ZoomSlowik Jul 12 2006, 02:56 PM

How about we use a full 82-game season instead of one 6-game series? That's what I was referring to. Anyone can go nuts in a single series. You didn't prove anything, other than that your logic is seriously flawed.

Posted by: taurus515th Jul 12 2006, 02:58 PM

maybe because u said he was better in shooting without the including free throws in the PLAYOFFS and NOT the 82 season game.

Posted by: ZoomSlowik Jul 12 2006, 02:58 PM

Okay, then you must think that Jordan, Lebron, Kobe, Shaq, and every other good player in the history of the game is overrated, because the vast majority of them get a lot of points at the free throw line. That's going to happen, because the best players are going to have the ball in their hands for most of the game and are going to attack the basket more than most players. Getting favorable calls has an effect, but it's minimal. Plus, you still have to do something to earn that kind of respect.

Posted by: ZoomSlowik Jul 12 2006, 02:59 PM

I never said that. I merely commented that he actually scored a higher number of points away from the line in the playoffs than in the regular season. That's usually what parentheses are used for, to make a comment that is somewhat related to the point but not necessarily in the same thought.

Posted by: taurus515th Jul 12 2006, 03:00 PM

yes i do. i never did watch basketball much when Jordan was playing so i couldnt tell. But everyone else yea

Posted by: ZoomSlowik Jul 12 2006, 03:01 PM

This obviously seems to be our fundamental problem. Apparently anyone with talent that gets a few calls is overrated.

Posted by: taurus515th Jul 12 2006, 03:03 PM

its the truth i said n my first or second post here im new to basketball if u do not believe me go look for urself.

Posted by: ZoomSlowik Jul 12 2006, 03:04 PM

That's not what I'm rolling my eyes at.

Posted by: SoxFan1 Jul 12 2006, 03:05 PM

Well, just my 2 cents, but if you're new to basketball, don't get into arguments with people who aren't.

Posted by: hammerhead johnson Jul 12 2006, 03:08 PM

Dwyane Wade can dribble, which means that he can penetrate without the ball bouncing off of his knee-cap. Therfore, he will always have plenty of free throw opportunities.

Ben Gordon CAN NOT dribble, which means that he has to hoist up low-percentage shots from the outside. Therefore, he will never have anywhere near as many opportunities to shoot free throws.

If you are an SG and you can not get to the free throw line consistently, you are worthless. Really, free throws is what it's all about. That's why I can't consider Iverson altogether useless, YMCA cancer that he is.

Ben Gordon = Better Version Of Trent Tucker

I know that he's your hero and all, but seriously, root for SGs that can actually dribble. I won't even elaborate on the fact that he is an ATROCIOUS defender. Just a major liability, overall.

Posted by: taurus515th Jul 12 2006, 03:10 PM

just because im new doesnt mean i know the guy im arguing with its either.

Just because Lebron was new to the NBA it did not take long to be compared to Micheal Jordan after Micheal wasnt considered great till years many after being in the NBA.

Posted by: ZoomSlowik Jul 12 2006, 03:12 PM

I was eagerly awaiting your scathing commentary.

I think we've both said this before: Ben Gordon is ideally a role player that comes in as a designated gunner off the bench. He's a very good shooter with solid quickness, but that's about it. Unless he gets more aggressive and improves his ball-handling, he is not an elite scorer.

Posted by: hammerhead johnson Jul 12 2006, 03:12 PM

Is there an intelligent basektball fan on this planet who would ever compare a point forward like Lebron James to a shooting guard like Michael Jordan? I seriously doubt it.

Posted by: taurus515th Jul 12 2006, 03:13 PM

i know but people r really idoits in the NBA media and keep saying that everytime i c him play.

Posted by: ZoomSlowik Jul 12 2006, 03:14 PM

Well, that's the NBA and ESPN's fault for trying to hype up Lebron. Judging by this past year he can have a similar impact on the game, but his defense isn't even close, and he's obviously 6 rings short. That doesn't mean that he (or Wade) isn't a fantastic player with a bright future.

Lebron certainly appears to be the most gifted player to enter the NBA in quite some time. It's not really fair to compare him to Michael in his prime, but he certainly appears to have a lot in common with the younger Pre-championship Michael.

Posted by: hammerhead johnson Jul 12 2006, 03:20 PM

Exactly.

And just like with Scotty Pods (tens of thousands of fly balls hit to him), Ben Gordon has been dribbling since he was in kindergarten or whatever, and over the past decade or so, he hasn't gone through highly awkward growth spurts like your typical big man. Will his ball-handling just magically improve one of these years? There ain't a chance in hell. He just doesn't have "it". He is relegated to Trent Tucker status.

I could never support a guy like that, not even on my worst day. #3 overall draft pick? WOW.

Posted by: ZoomSlowik Jul 12 2006, 03:23 PM

I do kind of shudder when I realize that people were talking about him playing point guard.

Trent Tucker is a bit harsh though, he's a better scorer than that. I'd say that he's a more athletic Jeff Hornacek.

Posted by: taurus515th Jul 12 2006, 03:27 PM

he can always improve in dribbling/and decision making but i still think he should stick to shooting guard too. Hes i shooter.

Posted by: hammerhead johnson Jul 12 2006, 03:39 PM

Decision making? Yes. Ball-handling? I highly doubt it.

Like I said, he's been dribbling for pretty much all of his life. Certain aspects of his game that have jack spiff to do with "the mental" are already in peak form, and dribbling would be one of them.

Will strength training improve his dribbling? No. Will a higher basketball IQ translate into better ball-handling skills? No.

Do you have any idea how many ball-handling drills this guy has been through by now?

The Trent Tucker comparison was harsh, but you guys can see where I'm coming from. Trent couldn't drive to the hoop or play defense. That's basically Ben Gordon.

Posted by: cars Jul 12 2006, 06:01 PM

Since someone wanted to say that if you take Dwaynes free throws away he's average, I think we can do a little research here.

Jordan averaged 8.1 free throw attempts a game. Following the acumen someones tried to argue about Dwayne Wade, his career average was only 22 points a game. Like Wade he attacked the lane.

Let's look at the other top scorers in the NBA over the years:
McGrady- 6.4 attempts a game
Kobe- 7.3 attempts a game
Iverson- 9 attempts a game
Lebron- 8 attempts a game
Carmelo- 7.6 attempts a game
Wade- 8.8

So are his numbers that out of whack? Not really, so I think that should deflate your belief that Wade is overvalued because of he gets to the line frequently.

Next pointless topic of debate please?

Posted by: eddog2 Jul 12 2006, 06:17 PM

D-Wayde and Lebron are great athlethes and both drive to the basket and get fouled frequently.

I would have to agree that a shooting guard should average at least 5 free throws a game. I don't expect Gordon to be Lebron or D-Wayde but if he could get to the line 5+ times a night and also cut down on his turnovers then I say he deserves to start. Otherwise he deserves to be a great 6th man which he was and still could be.

To start at a position that you are not tall enough for you need to be the exception. The guy that has a talent that nobody else has or that is hard to find. He needs to improve his passing and his dribbling significantly but more importantly he needs to stop making horrible decisions on the court.

I just am not sure if those things can be corrected soon enough or ever. Hopefully his 2 a day workouts this summer will help. But if he doesn't improve I think you delegate him to the bench and if he isn't satisfied then ship him off while his value is still high.

Posted by: bulls91 Jul 12 2006, 06:20 PM

i would love it and it would be a dream come true and chicago would be the most hatted team ever in the history of the NBA

Posted by: sport1016 Jul 13 2006, 04:59 AM

Am I absolutely nuts for thinking that getting to the free throw line is a skill that should be valued and not hated?

These guys aren't overrated bc they get so many points at the line, they are reliable offensive producers.

I Know I have posted this thought before, but how many times will you see a stat line where Kobe or Dwade or Lebron or Pierce or McGrady shot an awful %, like 8/25 and still had 25 pts?

Getting to the line is a skill and a highly valued one. It is what makes the difference between a pending star like Gordon and a superstar like the guys mentioned above.

If Gordon has an off shooting night, he isn't going to have many pts. That is why we can't rely on him as our "go to" scorer. And EVERYONE has an off shooting night sometimes. If one of those guys mentioned above has an off shooting night, they are still scoring in the 20s, making them reliable "go to" guys.

FWIW I am pretty sure in the Bulls Lakers game 5 i watched pippen led all scorers with 32 pts. 11 from the line.

That is why a guy like corey magette has good value in the league. He's not an amazing shooter, he's selfish, a mediocre defensive player, but he is a reliable scorer bc he gets to the free throw line so much.

Dwade doesn't call his own fouls. Like taking a charge, (which we rightfully praise noc and du for constantly) drawing a foul involves forcing contact and a little acting, which in itself is a skill of the game.

Jordan, Kobe, Dwade, most soccer players= all good actors.

John starks= bad actor
steve guttenberg=bad actor

Hopefully that sets the record straight about free throws, being a go to scorer, and steve guttenberg.

Posted by: hammerhead johnson Jul 13 2006, 12:44 PM

The ability to draw fouls is what it's all about for perimiter scoring threats. Not only do you get the other team's most important frontcourt players in foul trouble, but you also get free points more than 70% of the time (at least in theory)

Points in the paint (feeding it to Shaq, for instance) and fouls off of penetration (Dwyane Wade) are the two most important aspects of offense. You need a frontcourt scoring option (which we don't have), and you need an SG who can penetrate and get to the line (which we don't have).

Defense rules all, but it should be noted that conservative offense goes hand in hand with a defensive philosophy. It applies to all team sports.

In football, it's running the ball effectively. You wear down the opposing defense, and you keep your defense fresh.

In baseball, it is moving the runners along via the sacrifice, the bunt, etc. Playing for one run at a time and NOT waiting around for HRs.

In basketball, it is feeding the ball to your frontcourt scoring options for the highest percentage shots available, and having your perimiter scoring threats penetrate & get the team's opposing frontcourt threats in foul trouble.

The Miami Heat are not a good defensive team, but they won a championship via "defensive offense" (if you will). That is the formula: feed the ball to your unstoppable big man, and let your SG penetrate all day long.

What the Bulls have right now is an insane defense, and an offense that is pretty freaking far from conservative. That will hold us back from winning any championships. I know that people don't want to hear this, but it's the truth. And while Ben Gordon gets a lot of support from Bulls fans, he is one of the primary reasons why we will continue to suck hard on offense. He can't penetrate from the SG slot, which is a sin. He likes to gamble from th outside, and compulsively at that. The absence of a scoring option down low is equally as bad.

You can break down every team in the league on this basis. You need perimiter scoring threats who can penetrate, and frontcourt scoring options. A dominant defense on its own is not enough, although you always always always build with defense first and foremost. Picking Ben Gordon with the #3 overall pick = crazy retarded basketball philosophy. You're not building with defense or conservative offense when you draft guys like that. It was a NY Knicks move, and Pax will forever be branded as a basketball retard in my mind. Great 2006 draft or not, he selected Ben Gordon with the #3 overall pick.

I hate streetball, because it is the exact opposite of conservative offense. So, when I say that I wouldn't take players like Iverson, Marbury, or Francis if they were free, I am being dead serious. I'm not just saying these things to get some attention.

Although I'll let Iverson off the hook a bit, as he is half conservative/half compulsive gambler. He'll lead the league in free throw attempts, but he'll also lead the league in stupid shots as well.