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> The Great MVP Debate, Not just a one man race anymore?
Chi-town23-33
post Jan 4 2007, 01:56 PM
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Throughout this early season it has appeared that Steve Nash was running and gunning his way to a third straight NBA Most Valuable Player Award. However, Nash has kind of slowed down the last couple of games and now their is a great deal of buzz coming from a challenger, Gilbert Arenas. Arenas has been putting up great numbers and has his team one game out of first place in the East. If he continues on his pace he could get quite a large number of votes. Nash is still the frontrunner, but Agent Zero is pulling up fast.

Is he Nash's biggest challenge for MVP this season? Or will some other star player appear as the next two-thirds of the season comes?
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Balta1701-B
post Jan 4 2007, 02:14 PM
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Larry Bird, Wilt Chamberlain, Bill Russell:

The only 3 players to win 3 consecutive NBA MVP awards.

My only question; Does Nash deserve to be mentionned with those 3 guys?
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ZoomSlowik
post Jan 4 2007, 04:47 PM
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Honestly, I thought Lebron should have won it last year. However, unless Arenas keeps dominating I think it probably is Nash again.
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Chi-town23-33
post Jan 4 2007, 05:55 PM
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QUOTE (Balta1701-B @ Jan 4 2007, 02:07 PM) *
Larry Bird, Wilt Chamberlain, Bill Russell:

The only 3 players to win 3 consecutive NBA MVP awards.

My only question; Does Nash deserve to be mentionned with those 3 guys?


Nash's last two seasons have put him in the Hall of Fame, but he is by no near the three guys you listed.

Larry Bird - clutch as hell, three titles in the league's toughest era

Wilt Chamberlain - a skilled big man who is the most dominant player of all-time. Second only to MJ IMO.

Bill Russell - greatest defensive player of all-time and centerpiece of 11 championship teams

Steve Nash - two great seasons, two MVPs and ... I guess that's about it biggrin.gif

No offense to Nash, I think he's a great player and should go to the HOF, but to be mentioned with those guys is too much praise too soon.
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Jordan4life_2007
post Jan 4 2007, 06:13 PM
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Can somebody tell me the difference between Arenas and Iverson? There really isn't any. They're both fantastic talents. But other than score, what do they really do? Do they make those around them better? No. Are they great, or even good, defenders? No. Do they have high b-ball IQs and genreally make good decisions with the ball? They both shoot in the low 40's every year and turn the ball over a lot. So I'd have to say no again.

As far as Nash goes, you have to go back to John Stockton in his prime to find a PG having the year he's currently having.
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DrunkBomber
post Jan 4 2007, 06:58 PM
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QUOTE (Jordan4life_2006 @ Jan 4 2007, 06:06 PM) *
Can somebody tell me the difference between Arenas and Iverson? There really isn't any. They're both fantastic talents. But other than score, what do they really do? Do they make those around them better? No. Are they great, or even good, defenders? No. Do they have high b-ball IQs and genreally make good decisions with the ball? They both shoot in the low 40's every year and turn the ball over a lot. So I'd have to say no again.

As far as Nash goes, you have to go back to John Stockton in his prime to find a PG having the year he's currently having.

Thats my thinking. Nash makes everyone around him better and still has good numbers. All Arenas can do is score. Not to mention, hes nuts.
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ZoomSlowik
post Jan 5 2007, 03:31 PM
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QUOTE (Jordan4life_2006 @ Jan 4 2007, 06:06 PM) *
Can somebody tell me the difference between Arenas and Iverson? There really isn't any. They're both fantastic talents. But other than score, what do they really do? Do they make those around them better? No. Are they great, or even good, defenders? No. Do they have high b-ball IQs and genreally make good decisions with the ball? They both shoot in the low 40's every year and turn the ball over a lot. So I'd have to say no again.

As far as Nash goes, you have to go back to John Stockton in his prime to find a PG having the year he's currently having.


Though your general premise has some merits, I'm not a fan of the phrase "all he can do is score," and there are worse comparisons that you can make than Iverson. Scoring is basically half the game, and Arenas and Iverson do it as well as anyone in the league in a multitude of ways. Yes, they're not as strong a ball distributor (though they're still better at it than a lot of guys) and their defense is questionable, but that doesn't dimish what they do as scorers, it just means they're a bit less versatile. Besides, Nash isn't exactly a lock-down defender either and turns it over quite a bit himself as well, though I would still say he's a much better distributor.

Also, the "doesn't make the players around him better" is a popular argument, but how many guys really do it? And how can you really conclude without a doubt that he or others doesn't do it when it can't be quantified? Would Marion, Stoudemire, and the rest of the Suns really be that much worse if someone like Kidd or Paul was their PG? I don't think so. And if Nash really does do it, why haven't Phoenix or Dallas won anything even with well above average talent, and why was Nash not as well regarded until his 5th year as a starter despite posting comparable numbers in Dallas? Nash is probably better in that area than Arenas, but I can't put him in the same category as guys like Michael, Magic, and Stockton, and even contemporaries like Lebron, Kobe, and AI have had decent success with much less talented teams (obviously I'm talking about post-Shaq with Kobe), and you could probably put Wade in that category too since Miami's roster isn't that impressive outside of him and Shaq.

You generally need at least SOME talent around you to do anything, and the Wizards are brutal outside of Arenas, Jamison, and Butler, and the latter two aren't exactly stars. The same can be said for Iverson in Philly. They used to say the same thing about Chamberlain, then his teams got better and he sacrifed stats for wins. I'm not saying Arenas definitively makes the players around him better, but I also don't really think you can totally condemn him until he plays with some other solid players, or at least some semblance of a post presence (if he ever does that is). Very few players have had major success with teams with limited talent, and those guys are (or will be when their career is over) among the best players of all time.

Don't get me wrong, Nash is a very good point guard, and I do think that so far he is the MVP favorite, but let's not go canonizing him. I'd also argue that Kidd in his best years is on the same level (his defense and rebounding abilities compensate for lower shooting percentages).
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Chi-town23-33
post Jan 5 2007, 05:59 PM
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QUOTE (ZoomSlowik @ Jan 5 2007, 03:24 PM) *
Don't get me wrong, Nash is a very good point guard, and I do think that so far he is the MVP favorite, but let's not go canonizing him. I'd also argue that Kidd in his best years is on the same level (his defense and rebounding abilities compensate for lower shooting percentages).


I agree, Kidd in his best years could do so much. I'm amazed at what he is doing right now as well. One of my favorite players in the league who IMO does not get enough credit or recognition.

Anyway, Nash is the frontrunner but I think Gilbert has a decent chance if his team wins the Southeast Division and he continues to play this way. I don't think the voters want to give Nash a 3rd MVP if they don't have to. Also, Kobe Bryant is making a move right now and watch out for Dirk later in the season as well. LeBron and Dwyane haven't impressed much so far this year, but one of them could make a move later on as well. Boozer and Duncan will get support as well, but I don't know if anyone considers them real candidates (Duncan might not have the numbers, Boozer does not have the publicity).

Candidates:
(1) Nash
(2) Arenas
(3) Bryant
(4) Nowitzki
(5) Boozer
(6) Duncan
(7) James
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SleepyWhiteSox
post Jan 15 2007, 02:20 AM
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QUOTE (DrunkBomber @ Jan 4 2007, 06:51 PM) *
All Arenas can do is score.


And Nash can defend?
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Chi-town23-33
post Jan 15 2007, 09:05 PM
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In recent games it looks like Dirk is makin a push. His scoring and rebounding have been up the last couple games, and his shooting percentages have been up all season. If the Mavs finish on top you may see Nowitzki getting the MVP if his numbers continue to rise. I think Nash deserves it most this year, but Nowitzki may get more votes because:

(1) Voters don't want to put Nash in a group with Chamberlain, Bird, and Russell
(2) In many eyes (in some cases, hindsight in others) Dirk should have won it last year

Not saying that's fair, but its just how it goes. Kobe and Arenas still have decent shots as well.
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ZoomSlowik
post Jan 16 2007, 01:49 PM
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QUOTE (Chi-town23-33 @ Jan 15 2007, 08:58 PM) *
In recent games it looks like Dirk is makin a push. His scoring and rebounding have been up the last couple games, and his shooting percentages have been up all season. If the Mavs finish on top you may see Nowitzki getting the MVP if his numbers continue to rise. I think Nash deserves it most this year, but Nowitzki may get more votes because:

(1) Voters don't want to put Nash in a group with Chamberlain, Bird, and Russell
(2) In many eyes (in some cases, hindsight in others) Dirk should have one it last year

Not saying that's fair, but its just how it goes. Kobe and Arenas still have decent shots as well.


You've got a point, he might not get it simply because people are sick of voting for him. Jordan had that problem for most of his career, it seemed like they were looking for excuses not to give it to him.
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eddog2
post Jan 17 2007, 02:40 AM
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QUOTE (Chi-town23-33 @ Jan 15 2007, 08:58 PM) *
In recent games it looks like Dirk is makin a push. His scoring and rebounding have been up the last couple games, and his shooting percentages have been up all season. If the Mavs finish on top you may see Nowitzki getting the MVP if his numbers continue to rise. I think Nash deserves it most this year, but Nowitzki may get more votes because:

(1) Voters don't want to put Nash in a group with Chamberlain, Bird, and Russell
(2) In many eyes (in some cases, hindsight in others) Dirk should have won it last year

Not saying that's fair, but its just how it goes. Kobe and Arenas still have decent shots as well.



Don't even bring Dirk into the mix. If anything Dirk should have won last year not this year. It has to be Nash or Gilbert. Out of all the times where Dirk has scored 20 or less points or when he didn't play the Mavs are 9-1. The one loss being at the beginning of the year when they weren't the same team. So basically when Dirk focuses less on being the man or when he is having an off night the Mavs have the talent to win the game. That's b/c they have Josh Howard as well as several other good players.

When Gilbert has a bad game the Wizards typically lose. They are 1-6 when he scores 20 or less. They are also 17-2 when he scores 30 points or more. That shows what type of impact he has on the team and the game. Gilbert is averaging 30 points, 4.3 boards, 6.3 assists & 2 steals while shooting 40% from the arc. He makes over 3 3's a game. He has scored 40+ seven times this year. He deserves MVP before Dirk any day.

If I had to vote now, Nash would still win. However, Arenas might earn it by the end of the year. Nash is having his best year. He's shooting a career best 52.6% FG and 49.5% from the arc. He's also averaging 11.3 assists to lead the league and he is scoring a career best 19.5 ppg. He is the oil that runs the Suns high-powered attack. There is no other Steve Nash in the NBA. The passes he makes and the things he does are 2nd to none. That is why I think Nash will win his 3rd MVP in a row. When he won his 1st, I thought the voters were crazy. When he won his second I thought it was controversial. But the more I see him play and the way the offense isn't as effective without him only proves to me that he is their most valuable player. That is why the team hardly missed a beat with Amare last year. Nash distributes the ball like no other. Only wish the league had a few more Nash's to go around. Lord knows the Bulls could use a Steve Nash.
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Chi-town23-33
post Jan 18 2007, 07:42 PM
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QUOTE (eddog2 @ Jan 17 2007, 02:33 AM) *
Don't even bring Dirk into the mix. If anything Dirk should have won last year not this year. It has to be Nash or Gilbert. Out of all the times where Dirk has scored 20 or less points or when he didn't play the Mavs are 9-1. The one loss being at the beginning of the year when they weren't the same team. So basically when Dirk focuses less on being the man or when he is having an off night the Mavs have the talent to win the game. That's b/c they have Josh Howard as well as several other good players.

When Gilbert has a bad game the Wizards typically lose. They are 1-6 when he scores 20 or less. They are also 17-2 when he scores 30 points or more. That shows what type of impact he has on the team and the game. Gilbert is averaging 30 points, 4.3 boards, 6.3 assists & 2 steals while shooting 40% from the arc. He makes over 3 3's a game. He has scored 40+ seven times this year. He deserves MVP before Dirk any day.

If I had to vote now, Nash would still win. However, Arenas might earn it by the end of the year. Nash is having his best year. He's shooting a career best 52.6% FG and 49.5% from the arc. He's also averaging 11.3 assists to lead the league and he is scoring a career best 19.5 ppg. He is the oil that runs the Suns high-powered attack. There is no other Steve Nash in the NBA. The passes he makes and the things he does are 2nd to none. That is why I think Nash will win his 3rd MVP in a row. When he won his 1st, I thought the voters were crazy. When he won his second I thought it was controversial. But the more I see him play and the way the offense isn't as effective without him only proves to me that he is their most valuable player. That is why the team hardly missed a beat with Amare last year. Nash distributes the ball like no other. Only wish the league had a few more Nash's to go around. Lord knows the Bulls could use a Steve Nash.


I see absolutely no reason to bring Dirk Nowitzki into the discussion. Yes, he deserved it last year more than this year, but maybe he gets it this year as a sort of make-up, especially if his team gets the best record. And regardless of how the Mavs do without him, Dirk Nowitzki makes them a title contender, just like Nash makes the Suns a title contender, or Duncan the Spurs. Nash may be more valuable to his team as far as competing goes, but when in the playoffs (if they made it their) the Mavs would go nowhere without their star. Josh Howard has been playing great, but hasn't been doing anything that the Matrix hadn't been doing for years. Their teams are about even, but the Mavs have a little more depth. And also, Dirk's numbers are starting to rise pretty quickly, so by season's end he could have the numbers to go along with the record (plus his defense has become much better from last season too).

Arenas has been fabulous this year, but why is he getting all this attention for MVP. The couple of clutch shots? Kobe arguably had a better individual season last year, with the possibility that Arenas' team does not match his team's record from last year in a weaker conference. By the end of the season James will have surpassed Arenas as the East's best candidate. Arenas' team does poorly when he scores less than 20 because he still probably took around 20+ shots. For every major scoring game Arenas has had, he has had one with very poor shooting. That's why his field goal percentage is only around 43%. He is too inconsistent to be MVP. Kobe Bryant is much more deserving than Arenas in my opinion.

(1a) Nash
(1b) Dirk
(2) Kobe
(3) Arenas

Oh, and the Bulls could use a Steve Nash. Jason Kidd (best PG of the last decade) is rumored to be available. Just too bad he and Skiles don't get along, plus we already have Hinrich.
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MB33
post Jan 29 2007, 10:42 AM
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If i was to pick now i would go Arenas!
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truthandbasketba...
post Jan 29 2007, 11:07 AM
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Steve Nash deserves MVP simply because he is the greatest true point guard in the NBA right now. Unselfish to a point that he has been able to no-look pass his team to a 17-game win streak, that is truly deserving of a vote in my books. Arenas has snapped this season too and Hibatchi definitely deserves an honorable mention but I'm old school and I love the team first mentality thats at the heart of Phoenix's success this year. I'm pulling for the Bulls to do great things in the East but I really wont be surprised if the Suns take the West.
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