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> LeBron Interested In The Bulls?, "That's the one team no one talks about"
Chicago Bulls Fr...
post Feb 26 2010, 04:13 PM
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[quote name='eddog2' date='Feb 26 2010, 03:29 PM' post='43133']
I rank them like this:

1. Lebron - Agreed
2. Kobe - Kobe? Really? He's not going anywhere and even if he wanted to come to the Bulls he's 30 years old. He doesn't belong #2.
3. Wade - Bosh is a safer bet. Wade and Rose need to have the ball in there hands to make plays.
4. Johnson - NO. Johnson is an okay fall back option but he's no where near top 4.
5. Bosh - Should be higher up, he's the best big man on the market and when is the last time the Bulls had an All Star big man?
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Cowch
post Feb 26 2010, 08:33 PM
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I say....
1-Lebron: He's Lebron
2-Bosh: The big man the Bulls have been needing for so very long.
3-Amare: Next best thing to Bosh.
4-Boozer: Next best thing to Amare
5-JJohnson: Would be a nice compliment to Rose.
6-Wade: Great basketball player, but like has been said he needs the ball in his hands.

I put Wade after Johnson because I think JJohnson would take less of Rose's game away. I love Wade, but I'd rather have a great Rose+swing man/big man. Than Wade+okay Rose and likely no big man.

Honestly I think the best Bulls team that could be on the court next year would be Rose-JJohnson-Deng-Boozer-Noah. Although there's no "sure-thing" all-star (we'll see what Rose does in the years to come), that would be a very solid team IMO.
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Sanitarium
post Feb 26 2010, 09:37 PM
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I mean ... spiff.. if carlos boozer and james johnson are your fallback options.. whats not to like? however if we dont grab at least one of those six we are FUCKED
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eddog2
post Mar 1 2010, 11:09 AM
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QUOTE (ZoomSlowik @ Feb 26 2010, 04:09 PM) *
You're strange Edwin. You freak out about how Gibson can't be our answer at PF in the other thread, but suddenly you'd rather have him starting than Chris Bosh? You don't think that just maybe playing in a frontcourt where Andrea Bargnani isn't the "power" forward or center makes a pretty sizeable difference? Over the last three years his PER allowed is around 5 points lower when he's playing PF instead of center. Some, "career year" too, he's averaged 22-10 twice before this and 22-9 twice as well. He's been one of the best big men out there for several years.

PF is easily a bigger concern than SG. You're not winning a title with a frontcourt of Noah and Gibson unless you get Lebron. You need someone like Bosh that can convert at a solid clip inside and get to the line with regularity. It's also far easier to find a serviceable shooting guard than a big man that can score. Johnson is a solid player, but you're basically right back where you were last season if you sign him instead of Bosh.


All I'm saying is that if we pay Bosh a max deal we won't win any titles. If we can get Bosh for a few million a year under a max then sure sign the guy. Maybe playing next to Noah I'd like him more but he just doesn't come across as a winner in my eyes. But I could just be crazy.

I'm not saying that I want Joe Johnson more than a great big man but I'm just saying that I don't think Bosh is the big man we need. I would rather have had Gasol. I guess if we have a chance to sign him we have to make a move b/c we don't get a chance to sign a PF like him that often. I know the Bulls will be going after him with a max contract. That's what scares me. Overpaying for him leaves us with no money to sign anyone else. And then Noah needs an extension and then Rose. How does that play out for Noah?

Anyway,

Noah
Bosh
Deng
Kirk
Rose

That's a very good lineup but would it win a title?
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ZoomSlowik
post Mar 1 2010, 01:26 PM
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QUOTE (eddog2 @ Mar 1 2010, 11:09 AM) *
All I'm saying is that if we pay Bosh a max deal we won't win any titles. If we can get Bosh for a few million a year under a max then sure sign the guy. Maybe playing next to Noah I'd like him more but he just doesn't come across as a winner in my eyes. But I could just be crazy.

I'm not saying that I want Joe Johnson more than a great big man but I'm just saying that I don't think Bosh is the big man we need. I would rather have had Gasol. I guess if we have a chance to sign him we have to make a move b/c we don't get a chance to sign a PF like him that often. I know the Bulls will be going after him with a max contract. That's what scares me. Overpaying for him leaves us with no money to sign anyone else. And then Noah needs an extension and then Rose. How does that play out for Noah?

Anyway,

Noah
Bosh
Deng
Kirk
Rose

That's a very good lineup but would it win a title?


People said the same thing about Gasol when he was playing in Memphis. If I felt like digging through the archives, I bet I could find a bunch of posts about how Gasol isn't a winner, is a guy that puts up stats on bad teams and doesn't really make a difference, is too soft and is a mediocre defender. Now he has a ring and has a shot at a few more.

It's amazing what an upgrade of your teammates can do, Bosh has had a mediocre supporting cast since he hit his peak. Rose is quite a bit better than anyone he's played with in Toronto, Noah is definitely the best rebounder/defender he would be paired with up front, and you can make a case that Deng is better than any of the wing players Bosh has played with as well (especially since Bargnani has only been an 18 PPG type for about a season total and is officially a big man).

I'm also not sure how "paying him a few mil under a max deal" makes a difference. Seriously, I have no idea where you're going with that. Giving him a deal at an average of $16 or 17 mil a year makes a big difference over $19 mil or so? We'd still be over the cap either way and $2 or 3 mil isn't going to make any kind of difference in a luxury tax situation. They're not going to be adding anyone over the mid level exception if they sign anyone for more than like $14 mil, and they might not even have that in the next CBA. Besides, Kirk comes off the books before Rose is ever due an extension and they'd be nowhere close to the current luxury tax.

No acquisition makes them a lock for a title, not even Lebron. However, Rose/Bosh/Noah is a nice start that probably would make them a top-4 seed every year, and you could have worse guys as a #3 scorer than Deng. They'd still need to find one or two guys that can hit three's, but that's what draft picks and the MLE are for. It's a lot easier to find a wing player or two in the mid-first and in the bargain bin in free agency than it is to find a big man that can score. If they were so inclined, they could also try to use Kirk's expiring deal to get someone in 2011/2012.
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eddog2
post Mar 1 2010, 02:46 PM
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QUOTE (ZoomSlowik @ Mar 1 2010, 01:26 PM) *
People said the same thing about Gasol when he was playing in Memphis. If I felt like digging through the archives, I bet I could find a bunch of posts about how Gasol isn't a winner, is a guy that puts up stats on bad teams and doesn't really make a difference, is too soft and is a mediocre defender. Now he has a ring and has a shot at a few more.

It's amazing what an upgrade of your teammates can do, Bosh has had a mediocre supporting cast since he hit his peak. Rose is quite a bit better than anyone he's played with in Toronto, Noah is definitely the best rebounder/defender he would be paired with up front, and you can make a case that Deng is better than any of the wing players Bosh has played with as well (especially since Bargnani has only been an 18 PPG type for about a season total and is officially a big man).

I'm also not sure how "paying him a few mil under a max deal" makes a difference. Seriously, I have no idea where you're going with that. Giving him a deal at an average of $16 or 17 mil a year makes a big difference over $19 mil or so? We'd still be over the cap either way and $2 or 3 mil isn't going to make any kind of difference in a luxury tax situation. They're not going to be adding anyone over the mid level exception if they sign anyone for more than like $14 mil, and they might not even have that in the next CBA. Besides, Kirk comes off the books before Rose is ever due an extension and they'd be nowhere close to the current luxury tax.

No acquisition makes them a lock for a title, not even Lebron. However, Rose/Bosh/Noah is a nice start that probably would make them a top-4 seed every year, and you could have worse guys as a #3 scorer than Deng. They'd still need to find one or two guys that can hit three's, but that's what draft picks and the MLE are for. It's a lot easier to find a wing player or two in the mid-first and in the bargain bin in free agency than it is to find a big man that can score. If they were so inclined, they could also try to use Kirk's expiring deal to get someone in 2011/2012.



All this coming from the guy that said Oden was a for sure lock as a #1 pick. JK. I told you Durant was the way to go. I'll hang that over your head in every argument til the day I die.

Anyway, all joking aside, I see your point. The only problem is I don't think Rose is as good as Kobe so winning a title would be hard with just Bosh. Sure the Bulls would be a lock for a deep playoff run each year I'm just not sold on them being able to beat Lebron or Dwight consistently in the playoffs if all they add is Bosh. Bosh fills up the stats and you could very well be on to something by thinking he'll be better playing around a better supporting cast. I'm not sure if Rose or Bosh are really good enough on their own to carry a team. Preferably I'd like to have a top talent (Lebron, Wade, etc.) or I'd like to use our cap room more productively by signing a PF and a SG if possible b/c I don't think we can overcome the hole at SG if we spend all our cap space on Bosh.

I think adding a Lebron would make us a lock for the title but that's not the point of my post. Is Bosh someone you trust much with the ball in his hands on the last play of the game? Is Rose? Neither has really demonstrated a knack for hitting the big shot at the end of games. Hopefully Rose develops that ability but I'm not banking on that.

As for Bosh being a winner, he's had decent (though not spectacular) talent to play with over his career. I agree with you that Rose/Noah/Deng/Kirk would be the best starting 5 he's ever played with but what bothers me with him is that he hasn't taken over and put a team on his shoulders the way that Wade has. I know that Wade handles the ball a lot and that's why people seem to favor Bosh over him but I look at it like this: What does Rose need to do to become more effective? Become more aggressive! Is there a single player to better learn that from that Wade who is consistently attacks the basket?

Either way, it's pointless to argue b/c I know at the end of the day the Bulls are going to be making a max offer to Bosh. He's been the guy they have coveted for some time. I just hope that if he does come he proves me wrong and the Bulls go on to dominate the East for years to come.
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ZoomSlowik
post Mar 1 2010, 05:01 PM
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QUOTE (eddog2 @ Mar 1 2010, 02:46 PM) *
All this coming from the guy that said Oden was a for sure lock as a #1 pick. JK. I told you Durant was the way to go. I'll hang that over your head in every argument til the day I die.

Anyway, all joking aside, I see your point. The only problem is I don't think Rose is as good as Kobe so winning a title would be hard with just Bosh. Sure the Bulls would be a lock for a deep playoff run each year I'm just not sold on them being able to beat Lebron or Dwight consistently in the playoffs if all they add is Bosh. Bosh fills up the stats and you could very well be on to something by thinking he'll be better playing around a better supporting cast. I'm not sure if Rose or Bosh are really good enough on their own to carry a team. Preferably I'd like to have a top talent (Lebron, Wade, etc.) or I'd like to use our cap room more productively by signing a PF and a SG if possible b/c I don't think we can overcome the hole at SG if we spend all our cap space on Bosh.

I think adding a Lebron would make us a lock for the title but that's not the point of my post. Is Bosh someone you trust much with the ball in his hands on the last play of the game? Is Rose? Neither has really demonstrated a knack for hitting the big shot at the end of games. Hopefully Rose develops that ability but I'm not banking on that.

As for Bosh being a winner, he's had decent (though not spectacular) talent to play with over his career. I agree with you that Rose/Noah/Deng/Kirk would be the best starting 5 he's ever played with but what bothers me with him is that he hasn't taken over and put a team on his shoulders the way that Wade has. I know that Wade handles the ball a lot and that's why people seem to favor Bosh over him but I look at it like this: What does Rose need to do to become more effective? Become more aggressive! Is there a single player to better learn that from that Wade who is consistently attacks the basket?

Either way, it's pointless to argue b/c I know at the end of the day the Bulls are going to be making a max offer to Bosh. He's been the guy they have coveted for some time. I just hope that if he does come he proves me wrong and the Bulls go on to dominate the East for years to come.


Injuries are a beach. banghead.gif

Anyways, here's my problem: you already have the guard that can create shots. He's not a finished product just yet, but Rose is the perimeter stud you need to win a title, the guy that can get into the paint and score or draw a foul. Everything you do has to be built around him from here on out since he's the one sure-fire championship-caliber piece that you have. Every move you make has to be done with Rose in mind and has to maximize his effectiveness as well as that of the team. That's what Cleveland has done with Lebron; while they don't have the most talented supporting cast, they've surrounded him with guys that will play D and hit jumpers and don't need the ball in their hands to be successful.

If you sign Wade or Lebron, you leave a gaping hole at power forward and add someone that has to share the ball with Rose. That would likely result in both of them being a bit less effective and would make it very hard to win a title. The only team that I can think of ever winning it all without an All-Star caliber big man that can score down low is Michael's Bulls, which is obviously an exception to the rule. Rose also doesn't seem to be the type of guy that can be the supremely versatile second banana that Pippen was.

Wade didn't single-handedly carry his team to contention, he had Shaq helping him out. Wade was/is obviously a dominant player, but without the big guy averaging 20-9 in 31 MPG in the regular season and 18-10 on 61% shooting in the playoffs, he doesn't have a ring. With Shaq hurt/gone, Wade hasn't been able to do much more than make the playoffs in the East.

If you have those two players inside and out, you can get away with a lot at the other positions. The rest of the starting lineup with Wade and Shaq was Jason Williams, Udonis Haslem and James Posey. The rest of the lineup when the Lakers were getting rings was Derek Fisher, Derek Fox and Ron Harper (they had Glenn Rice for one of them). Granted the Spurs had three players with Duncan/Parker/Ginobili, but outside of one year of Stephen Jackson they went with a collection of role players outside of that.

Yeah, Rose and Bosh aren't as good as those guys, but they're both still young and give you a shot at an extended run. If Rose never quite reaches that superstar level it's pretty much a moot point, they're not going to win a title if he has to take 18 shots to get 20 points for his entire career.

I think Bosh is probably joining Wade in Miami anyways, but he really makes the most sense for the Bulls. You make an exception if Lebron wants to come here as he's proven he can be the unquestioned alpha dog on a contender, but that would require a fair amount of roster overhaul to make it work well given none of their role players can shoot.
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eddog2
post Mar 2 2010, 04:20 PM
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QUOTE (ZoomSlowik @ Mar 1 2010, 05:01 PM) *
Injuries are a beach. banghead.gif

Anyways, here's my problem: you already have the guard that can create shots. He's not a finished product just yet, but Rose is the perimeter stud you need to win a title, the guy that can get into the paint and score or draw a foul. Everything you do has to be built around him from here on out since he's the one sure-fire championship-caliber piece that you have. Every move you make has to be done with Rose in mind and has to maximize his effectiveness as well as that of the team. That's what Cleveland has done with Lebron; while they don't have the most talented supporting cast, they've surrounded him with guys that will play D and hit jumpers and don't need the ball in their hands to be successful.

If you sign Wade or Lebron, you leave a gaping hole at power forward and add someone that has to share the ball with Rose. That would likely result in both of them being a bit less effective and would make it very hard to win a title. The only team that I can think of ever winning it all without an All-Star caliber big man that can score down low is Michael's Bulls, which is obviously an exception to the rule. Rose also doesn't seem to be the type of guy that can be the supremely versatile second banana that Pippen was.

Wade didn't single-handedly carry his team to contention, he had Shaq helping him out. Wade was/is obviously a dominant player, but without the big guy averaging 20-9 in 31 MPG in the regular season and 18-10 on 61% shooting in the playoffs, he doesn't have a ring. With Shaq hurt/gone, Wade hasn't been able to do much more than make the playoffs in the East.

If you have those two players inside and out, you can get away with a lot at the other positions. The rest of the starting lineup with Wade and Shaq was Jason Williams, Udonis Haslem and James Posey. The rest of the lineup when the Lakers were getting rings was Derek Fisher, Derek Fox and Ron Harper (they had Glenn Rice for one of them). Granted the Spurs had three players with Duncan/Parker/Ginobili, but outside of one year of Stephen Jackson they went with a collection of role players outside of that.

Yeah, Rose and Bosh aren't as good as those guys, but they're both still young and give you a shot at an extended run. If Rose never quite reaches that superstar level it's pretty much a moot point, they're not going to win a title if he has to take 18 shots to get 20 points for his entire career.

I think Bosh is probably joining Wade in Miami anyways, but he really makes the most sense for the Bulls. You make an exception if Lebron wants to come here as he's proven he can be the unquestioned alpha dog on a contender, but that would require a fair amount of roster overhaul to make it work well given none of their role players can shoot.


Zoom, sorry I'm always challenging your basketball IQ. You are a great asset to this message board and to the fantasy b-ball league. Sometimes I speak more out of personal dislike for a player than I do out of reason. I personally don't want Bosh on the Bulls b/c I've never been a big fan of his. Adding Bosh would give us a huge boost down low and would make us a much more well rounded team. I am just worried that neither him or Rose are truly ever going to be legit superstars and I know in this league not having a legit superstar typically equates to not winning any titles. I hope I am wrong about both Rose and Bosh b/c if they are both true superstars and they play together we'd have an excellent chance of winning multiple titles b/c the great teams typically have had 2 superstars.
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Balta1701-B
post Mar 2 2010, 06:04 PM
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If Rose isn't going to be a legit superstar, then we've really, really screwed up. (And I mean, screwed up his development, because he should be one).
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