Depth roaster, wow, we are deep Options

[bulls91]

i was just looking at the bulls roster i think that we are deep at all positions with very good talent at every position at least 2 deep. look

PG Hinrich, Duhon, Sefolosha
SG Gordon, Sefolosha, Griffin
SF Deng, Nocioni, Khyrapa, Griffin
PF Brown, Nocioni, Thomas, Allen
C Wallace, Sweetney, Brown

all has really good talent that will give thomas time to develope and gain weight with not much pressure on him but will get some minutes.

[SoxFan1]

To say the Bulls bench is better than the Kings bench was is asinine IMO. That Kings team made the playoffs like 5-6 years in a row and made the conference finals twice I believe. And if it wasn't for Robert Horry and a lucky ass 3 at the buzzer, the Kings would have been in the Finals, and likely would have won.

That team was always hampered with injuries. Webber was always down, Stojakovic had problems, etc.

As far as the bench, they had veterans who knew about winning and they had the best 6th man in the league in Bobby Jackson. The Bulls have done nothing to show me that they are a better Bench than those Kings. Pollard and Funderburke are beter than Schencher and Sweetney.

[eddog2]

To say the Bulls bench is better than the Kings bench was is asinine IMO. That Kings team made the playoffs like 5-6 years in a row and made the conference finals twice I believe. And if it wasn't for Robert Horry and a lucky ass 3 at the buzzer, the Kings would have been in the Finals, and likely would have won.

That team was always hampered with injuries. Webber was always down, Stojakovic had problems, etc.

As far as the bench, they had veterans who knew about winning and they had the best 6th man in the league in Bobby Jackson. The Bulls have done nothing to show me that they are a better Bench than those Kings. Pollard and Funderburke are beter than Schencher and Sweetney.

First of all don't say my opinion is asinine when you specifically wanted me to stop making criticism of other people's ideas. 2nd as you read in my previous post I did acknowledge that the Kings did make it to the conference finals, and I did acknowledge that Bobby Jackson was good enough to start on most teams in the league. So that takes away from two of your arguements. As for the rest the Kings won primarily because of Bibby and Webber in those playoff games. Their starting 5 carried them through the playoffs with the exception of Turkoglu and Jackson stepping in. I remember countless times seeing Webber set the screen and Bibby knocking down the shot or Webber getting the pass and hitting the jumper. They had a 2 man game going on for much of each 4th quarter. They lost because of Horry but that doesn't mean their bench is better then the Bulls.

2nd don't question my post because it makes complete sense. And if before wasn't good enough here is more proof.

Pollard 6.4 pts, 7.1 rebs, 55% fg, 69% ft (in 23 minutes)
Jackson 11.1 pts, 2 asst, 36 % 3 pt (22 minutes)
Turkoglu 10.1 pts, 2 asst, 37% 3pt (25 minutes)
(the next guy in terms of production was Funderburke)
Funderburke 4.7 pts, 3.5 rebs (13 minutes)

Now to say the Bulls bench this year doesn't compare or isn't better is asinine. The Kings had 2 legitimate bench players and a few role guys. The Bulls have 4 plus legit bench players. (Sweetney, Sefolosha, Duhon and either Nocioni or Deng)(this doesn't include Thomas because I don't think he will make much impact in his rookie campaign. But then again who knows?). I take those four over the four listed above.

Either Deng or Nocioni is a bench player (however you want to view it)

Deng 14.3 pts, 6.6 rebs (33 minutes)
Nocioni 13 pts, 6.1 rebs (27 minutes)
Sweetney 8.1 pts, 5.3 rebs (18.5 minutes)
Sefolosha (to be seen) (probably something like this 9 pts, 5 reb, 2 stl, 1 blk in 23-25 minutes)
Duhon 8.7 pts, 5 asst, 1 stl (29 minutes)

Now tell me again why my idea was so asinine!

(I also would rather have Sweetney who has a legitimate low post game instead of Pollard. And look his offensive production was better in less minutes). The Bulls have a good back-up at every spot on the floor.

Looking back at the list of names on the Kings bench if they all were there in their prime then no doubt their bench would have been better. Chucky Atkins, Gerald Wallace, Turkoglu, Jackson and Pollard. That is a sick lineup and would even have been good enough to beat the Bobcats a few years ago. That being said the only players at the time who were at a stage in their career to significantly produce wre Turkoglu and Jackson. The Bulls have 4 or more players who can come off the bench and be contributors or who can legitimately fill in as starters when other players miss a game.

[ZoomSlowik]

Deng 14.3 pts, 6.6 rebs (33 minutes)
Nocioni 13 pts, 6.1 rebs (27 minutes)
Sweetney 8.1 pts, 5.3 rebs (18.5 minutes)
Sefolosha (to be seen) (probably something like this 9 pts, 5 reb, 2 stl, 1 blk in 23-25 minutes)
Duhon 8.7 pts, 5 asst, 1 stl (29 minutes)

Now tell me again why my idea was so asinine!

Those numbers seem a bit high outside of Nocioni. With the additions we have made, probably only Nocioni sees as many minutes as he did last year. There will be fewer minutes to go around, meaning the numbers go down. Plus as much as we like Sef, that's pretty optomistic. Think about it, the math won't allow those guys to all play that much. Let's see what we come up with making some assumptions on minutes for our key guys:

post- There are only two post spots, which means there are 96 minutes to go around. 35 or so go to Wallace, around 30 to Brown, let's just say 10 for Nocioni (that might even be a little low). That only leaves 21 minutes total for Sweetney, Thomas, and whomever else we have down there.

SF- Even assuming he plays some 2-guard, it's at least 28 a game for Deng here, and another 17 or so for Nocioni. That leaves only about 3 minutes at SF for Griffin, or maybe playing Sef or Gordon here in a 3-guard look occasionally.

SG- Gordon plays at least 30 a game, probably more. Sef probably gets another 10 to 15. That leaves 8 minutes max for Griffin or possibly another PG.

PG- Hinrich plays 35 a game. Let's just assume 10 for Duhon. Sef gets what's left.

So unless one of the key guys plays less (only one I can see is Brown), Sweetney's absolute tops is about 15 minutes, Sefolosha's is about 20, and Duhon's is under 15. It'd be very difficult for those guys to put up solid numbers with that little playing time.

[HoofHearted]

post- There are only two post spots, which means there are 96 minutes to go around. 35 or so go to Wallace, around 30 to Brown, let's just say 10 for Nocioni (that might even be a little low). That only leaves 21 minutes total for Sweetney, Thomas, and whomever else we have down there.

I dont see PJ getting more than 20 minutes a game. A nice breakdown of post time to me is.......

PF
Sweetney-20
Thomas-12
Brown-18
Wallace-33
Allen-13


I'd like to see Allen more than 13 mpg this season, and really get a look at what he can do, he looked pretty good in the limited time he got down the stretch.

[ZoomSlowik]

I dont see PJ getting more than 20 minutes a game. A nice breakdown of post time to me is.......

PF
Sweetney-20
Thomas-12
Brown-18
Wallace-33
Allen-13


I'd like to see Allen more than 13 mpg this season, and really get a look at what he can do, he looked pretty good in the limited time he got down the stretch.

Yeah, that might be a bit high, I was just going off what he did last year. I still expect at least 25 minutes a game though. Sweetney will not get more minutes than him.

[HoofHearted]

Sweetney will not get more minutes than him.

I disagree heartily on this one. Sweets pushed PJ in every stat category while playing out of shape and 13 minutes less a game. Sweets in better condition is a no brainer to me, to get the most PT at PF. Ill say this again, all of PJ athleticism is gone, he cant make up for that with savvy and heart alone. Sweets is a younger, more capable scorer than PJ, and putting him out there for 20+ a game is a must. Anyone who sees him getting less than the 18 he played last year is going to be wrong, you can quote me on that.

[ZoomSlowik]

I disagree heartily on this one. Sweets pushed PJ in every stat category while playing out of shape and 13 minutes less a game. Sweets in better condition is a no brainer to me, to get the most PT at PF. Ill say this again, all of PJ athleticism is gone, he cant make up for that with savvy and heart alone. Sweets is a younger, more capable scorer than PJ, and putting him out there for 20+ a game is a must. Anyone who sees him getting less than the 18 he played last year is going to be wrong, you can quote me on that.

Sweetney didn't play all that much last year despite our lack of talent there. He could actually score and yet he still spent an awful lot of time on the bench. Sweetney is clearly in Skiles' doghouse, and I doubt that's changed. Now that we've upgraded our frontcourt, I don't see how he's suddenly going to play more. Brown is a better rebounder and defender, and he brings a veteran presence. He's a Skiles type of player, which is why he'll get more minutes.

[HoofHearted]

Sweetney didn't play all that much last year despite our lack of talent there. He could actually score and yet he still spent an awful lot of time on the bench. Sweetney is clearly in Skiles' doghouse, and I doubt that's changed. Now that we've upgraded our frontcourt, I don't see how he's suddenly going to play more. Brown is a better rebounder and defender, and he brings a veteran presence. He's a Skiles type of player, which is why he'll get more minutes.

He didnt play much last year because of the terrible shape he was in. Not only did Skiles hate that, but i doubt he was capable of standing out there more than 20 a game. You dont see how he's sudeenly gonna play more? How about the fact that he has dedicated himself to getting in better shape giving Skiles the option of running him out there more. Pj is nothing more than a bench contributor on a good team anymore, he is not nearly the same player anymore, especially on D where he used to be a stud. He pulled down a whole 2 boards more a game in 13 more minutes than Sweets, and blocked less shots in those 13 minutes.

[ZoomSlowik]

He didnt play much last year because of the terrible shape he was in. Not only did Skiles hate that, but i doubt he was capable of standing out there more than 20 a game. You dont see how he's sudeenly gonna play more? How about the fact that he has dedicated himself to getting in better shape giving Skiles the option of running him out there more. Pj is nothing more than a bench contributor on a good team anymore, he is not nearly the same player anymore, especially on D where he used to be a stud. He pulled down a whole 2 boards more a game in 13 more minutes than Sweets, and blocked less shots in those 13 minutes.

Sweetney is still far from in great shape, and he's going to be a defensive liability regardless. You could say the same thing about Sweetney, he is not a key contributor on a good team. He can score, but that's about it. Brown brings more to the table, even at this point in his career.

[HoofHearted]

Brown brings more to the table, even at this point in his career.

No he doesnt...

You obviously havent seen him play the last 4-5 seasons, and especially not last season. Lets just equalize their stats in 31 minutes played for the sake of proving a point here.

RPG APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG

PJ 7.3 1.2 .61 .67 1.2 2.9 9


Sweets 9 1.5 .5 1.44 2.4 5.44 13.77



So please tell me agin how Sweets is any more of a defensive liability than an end of the road worn down PJ?


Ill just say this again so you can bookmark it or whatever, whoever thinks Sweets will play less than the 18 a game he did last year will be wrong.

[bulls91]

No he doesnt...

You obviously havent seen him play the last 4-5 seasons, and especially not last season. Lets just equalize their stats in 31 minutes played for the sake of proving a point here.

RPG APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG

PJ 7.3 1.2 .61 .67 1.2 2.9 9
Sweets 9 1.5 .5 1.44 2.4 5.44 13.77
So please tell me agin how Sweets is any more of a defensive liability than an end of the road worn down PJ?
Ill just say this again so you can bookmark it or whatever, whoever thinks Sweets will play less than the 18 a game he did last year will be wrong.

and how many more minutes did brown have to be scored on more v.e. sweets? it all adds up to brown being the better Defencive presence.

[HoofHearted]

and how many more minutes did brown have to be scored on more v.e. sweets? it all adds up to brown being the better Defencive presence.

Please get back to me when you can make some sense of this as pertains to what was in my quote. Where in my quote did I have any numbers about being scored on? Not to mention if that was the case with the points column(never seen points againt per on an individual player anyway), I stated those numbes where with all minutes being equal(to go with your first sentence). What here all adds up to Brown being a better defenSive presence? When Sweets was averaging more than twice as many blocks? Or was it when Sweets was pulling down more boards?

No stats arent everything, but they have A LOT to show you about the way someone is playing the game. PJ is now playing at a low producing level all around for his PT. Sweets is producing well in a limited role, and will only get better with conditioning. I can safely say, every bit more Sweets gets conditioned will show up in the form of more production for him. All signs point to him already in better shape, saying he wont put up better numbers while in better shape, while playing more minutes, after being more experienced in the league goes against every sort of logic out there. Sweets isnt a huge defensive liability as some claim, he didnt get backed down in the post, he boxes out very well on both ends of the court, he is very strong despite the claims that he is just weak a slob, and he wasnt too slow(just got tired, again the conditioning factors in). He isnt the high energy defender as one would want, but he isnt a pushover on that end of the court by any means. Everything points to Sweets being a better player, you factor in age and how much PJ has regressed, Sweets in better physical shape, and it isnt hard to see. PJ has never been more than a league average productive role player in the post, and is on his last legs, Sweets on the other hand at 13 years younger has already proved he can be just as productive while playing less minutes. It's simple really, Sweets in better shape=Sweets ability to play more minutes at a max level=Sweets producing more on both ends.