Big Men Talk, It's back Options

[ZoomSlowik]

First of all, Edwin. It says "we suck," not "I suck" referring to Ben Gordon. The entire team sucked last year, and this pays tribute to that disaster of a season.

As for Gordon, he pisses me off, but with any sort of inside presence his game would blow up, we all know that.

Yep, pretty much everyone sucked to some extent this year, it's kinda pointless to argue who sucked more/less. Ben is still a terrible defender and often struggles to get off a good shot when we need it but is also easily our best scorer (though there isn't exactly a whole lot of competition there), Hinrich had a bad year with the shot and regressed defensively but is also easily the best ball-handler on the roster (again, not exactly saying a whole lot).

I also obviously agree we need a legit post player, that'd make life considerably easier for everyone, not just Gordon.

[Balta1701-B]

Yep, pretty much everyone sucked to some extent this year, it's kinda pointless to argue who sucked more/less. Ben is still a terrible defender and often struggles to get off a good shot when we need it but is also easily our best scorer (though there isn't exactly a whole lot of competition there), Hinrich had a bad year with the shot and regressed defensively but is also easily the best ball-handler on the roster (again, not exactly saying a whole lot).

I also obviously agree we need a legit post player, that'd make life considerably easier for everyone, not just Gordon.

Oh come on, seriously? Last year, people were begging for Pax to go after Drew Gooden to get that legit post player. Now it turns out he's not good enough of a low post player to make these guys finally show their skills. As far as I can tell, if Gooden isn't good enough at that role, then we've gone from asking for a "Low Post player" to asking for some version of Shaq or Duncan at their peaks or Howard or Amare right now. Because that seems like the only thing that will satiate this unending desire for a "low post player".

[SoxFan1]

Oh come on, seriously? Last year, people were begging for Pax to go after Drew Gooden to get that legit post player. Now it turns out he's not good enough of a low post player to make these guys finally show their skills. As far as I can tell, if Gooden isn't good enough at that role, then we've gone from asking for a "Low Post player" to asking for some version of Shaq or Duncan at their peaks or Howard or Amare right now. Because that seems like the only thing that will satiate this unending desire for a "low post player".

We could have had some Garnett guy or something?

[Balta1701-B]

We could have had some Garnett guy or something?

The problem is, in trading for a guy like that, don't we wind up having to give up the exact guys we think are the ones we'd want to see playing next to a Garnett? Deng and Gordon are the outside guys who we think would be solid #2 and #3 options, but were the T-Wolves going to give up Garnett for some combination of Tyrus, the #9 pick, PJ Brown, etc.?

[ZoomSlowik]

Oh come on, seriously? Last year, people were begging for Pax to go after Drew Gooden to get that legit post player. Now it turns out he's not good enough of a low post player to make these guys finally show their skills. As far as I can tell, if Gooden isn't good enough at that role, then we've gone from asking for a "Low Post player" to asking for some version of Shaq or Duncan at their peaks or Howard or Amare right now. Because that seems like the only thing that will satiate this unending desire for a "low post player".

Are YOU serious? There's a SIZEABLE gap between Drew Gooden and those names you threw out, that's a leap from a decent but not stellar option up to an All-NBA caliber player. I don't remember people "begging" to go after Drew Gooden, certainly not me. Drew Gooden doesn't exactly fit the definition of a "legit post player", or perhaps I should have used "well above average" or something along those lines (I think I used "competent" to describe Gooden in the past, meaning he's a decent starter). He's definitely big and has some ability, but he's not exactly a game changer or a guy that will draw significant attention away from our perimeter players. A step in the right direction yes, but career averages of 12 points and 8 rebounds don't exactly scream star, and neither do his 3-ish free throw attempts per game or mid-40's field goal percentage. It also doesn't help that his effort is inconsistent and his defense is not particularly good.

Kevin Garnett, Pau Gasol, Elton Brand, LaMarcus Aldridge, THOSE are legit big men that help our cause (well, the last one is getting there, still a lot of jumpers, but it is only his second year and he was in the top-50 in PER as is), and all are guys that were available to us in the recent past (or now in Brand's case), at least theoretically. A player at least close to that caliber is a key part to making our jumper-oriented attack work, or barring that a penetrating PG or a massive overhaul of our wing players. You're just not going to be able to win when damn near everyone on your team is shooting in the low 40's from the field unless you have a very good scorer that hits in the 50% range to balance it out or play spectacular defense (probably both).

[Steve9347]

Oh come on, seriously? Last year, people were begging for Pax to go after Drew Gooden to get that legit post player. Now it turns out he's not good enough of a low post player to make these guys finally show their skills. As far as I can tell, if Gooden isn't good enough at that role, then we've gone from asking for a "Low Post player" to asking for some version of Shaq or Duncan at their peaks or Howard or Amare right now. Because that seems like the only thing that will satiate this unending desire for a "low post player".

What in the world have you been smoking? No one was begging Pax to go after Drew Gooden to get that legit post player. You are mad. I pesonally loved the trade because it ridded us of Ben Wallace.

Drew Gooden is decent, but he's not someone who demands a double team and is a guaranteed inside presence night in and night out.

I think you got some bad weed or something, talkin' all crazy!

[SoxFan1]

Gooden is a guy who can get you a double-double every night with consistent starting minutes. He was doing great until the injury. He's solid but he is no KG or Amare or anything.

The problem I see is that people want things that there aren't too many of in the league. People insist we need a "true PG." Well, Steve Nash, Deron Williams, Chris Paul, and Jason Kidd are about the only ones out there and they ain't going anywhere. People want legit low post scorers. How many legit low post scorers are there in the league? Guys who are 6'10 and taller, who score most of their points posting up? Shaq, Duncan, Ming? MAYBE Bogut? Thats about all I can think of.

[Steve9347]

Gooden is a guy who can get you a double-double every night with consistent starting minutes. He was doing great until the injury. He's solid but he is no KG or Amare or anything.

The problem I see is that people want things that there aren't too many of in the league. People insist we need a "true PG." Well, Steve Nash, Deron Williams, Chris Paul, and Jason Kidd are about the only ones out there and they ain't going anywhere. People want legit low post scorers. How many legit low post scorers are there in the league? Guys who are 6'10 and taller, who score most of their points posting up? Shaq, Duncan, Ming? MAYBE Bogut? Thats about all I can think of.

Actually, I'd think that you'd be able to get Kidd from Dallas for under value. However, I'm not really all that interested in him. As for low post scorers, we're not asking for the world, we're asking for better than Drew Gooden, which isn't that much to ask.

[ZoomSlowik]

Gooden is a guy who can get you a double-double every night with consistent starting minutes. He was doing great until the injury. He's solid but he is no KG or Amare or anything.

The problem I see is that people want things that there aren't too many of in the league. People insist we need a "true PG." Well, Steve Nash, Deron Williams, Chris Paul, and Jason Kidd are about the only ones out there and they ain't going anywhere. People want legit low post scorers. How many legit low post scorers are there in the league? Guys who are 6'10 and taller, who score most of their points posting up? Shaq, Duncan, Boozer? MAYBE Bogut? Thats about all I can think of.

Back to the basket skills are more the main tool to get there than the desired result. Basically we're looking for a guy that gets easy baskets mostly in the painted area and draws a fair number of fouls. Generally that's from post play and/or driving ability, though short jumpers play a role as well and many post-ups end in those anyways.

Either way you didn't think too hard, there are more legit big men out there than you think. For the purposes of this argument, I'm defining it as a guy that regularly plays inside on offense and defense, averages more than 14 points a game (at least fairly regularly), and regularly shoots better than 47% from the field. I'll also include shoots 5 or more free throws, though if they fit the other three they'll still be listed (exceptions include a *). These aren't in order of preference or anything, mostly in order of point scored and a few additions that may not have qualified this year due to games played.

Amare Stoudemire
Dirk Nowitzki (more of a mid-range guy, but still has the desired effect)
Chris Bosh
Carlos Boozer
Al Jefferson* (4.8 FT this year)
Dwight Howard
David West* (heavy mid-range, 4.6 FT)
Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett* (heavy mid-range, 4.7 FT this year, down significantly from prime)
LaMarcus Aldridge* (heavy mid-range, 3.9 FT)
Zydrunas Ilgauskas* (3.3 FT, 4.6 career)
Emeka Okafor* (4.6 FT)
Yao Ming
Elton Brand
Pau Gasol

Borderline

Al Horford (will join this list in the near future)
Greg Oden (should as well, but one never knows)
Andrew Bynum (Just starting to come into his own, obviously assumes he gets over injury)
Zach Randolph (a tad short on the FG%)
Jermaine O'Neal (gets the points and FT's, but too many jumpers and appears to be on the decline)
Chris Kaman (first year as a major scoring threat)
Mehemet Okur (45.6% career, more of a floater outside though usually gets it done)
Andrew Bogut (only one 14 point season so far, not many FT's)
Chris Wilcox (gets about 13 a game at 50%, but not a lot of FT's)
Rasheed Wallace (still can get it done at times, but too many jumpers now, never really a foul-drawing machine)
Brad Miller (has hit points and FG% somewhat regularly but starting to decline a bit)
Drew Gooden (just to play devil's advocate, if he puts forth the effort more consistently he can be on there, unfortunately he doesn't. Generally good for about 12 and 8, but with a great deal of variance)

Debateable between SF and PF

Shawn Marion*
Lamar Odom*
Gerald Wallace


That gives you 15 bonafide guys that accomplish those goals fairly well (with the bulk of them being well over 14 a game), 3 combo forwards that do a decent job, 3 more pretty safe bets to accomplish it in the near future, and 9 more that are in and out, without projecting a whole lot from projects from the last few drafts or this upcoming draft. At worst you're looking at one for every other team, at best it's almost 1:1, so it's not quite chasing the white whale.

[Steve9347]

Zoom, I'm only going to say this once.

Get a job!

[ZoomSlowik]

Zoom, I'm only going to say this once.

Get a job!

Eh, it was only like a half hour of work, it's not like I scoured databasebasketball for everyone that did it in the last 3 years and came up with some formula to calculate the future production of guys on the bench or in college.

Can't really argue with the general thought though.

[Steve9347]

Eh, it was only like a half hour of work, it's not like I scoured databasebasketball for everyone that did it in the last 3 years and came up with some formula to calculate the future production of guys on the bench or in college.

Can't really argue with the general thought though.

Twas only kidding, it was a good post.

[eddog2]

Eh, it was only like a half hour of work, it's not like I scoured databasebasketball for everyone that did it in the last 3 years and came up with some formula to calculate the future production of guys on the bench or in college.

Can't really argue with the general thought though.

If only this site wasn't blocked at my work

I also have to say that Chris Kaman deserves to be on the list. He showed that he is a beast when he's the #1 post option on his team. With Brand he's the #2 option and doesn't get the looks. I'd rather have Kaman than Brand. Kaman is much younger and he's a force defensively. He's still has the potential to improve significantly (he's only 25). I'd trade Noah, Hughes, Gooden, & our pick for him and a re-signed Corey Maggette.

[Chicago Bulls Fr...]

I'd even like to get a guy like Rajon Rando- that type of point guard, not meaning HIM but his type of abilities are what we need. He's a slasher who also passes pretty well but his shot is horrible. A true point guard is somebody who's going to get a high amount of apg and score as well, like someone said above, there aren't many who do that.

[ZoomSlowik]

If only this site wasn't blocked at my work

I also have to say that Chris Kaman deserves to be on the list. He showed that he is a beast when he's the #1 post option on his team. With Brand he's the #2 option and doesn't get the looks. I'd rather have Kaman than Brand. Kaman is much younger and he's a force defensively. He's still has the potential to improve significantly (he's only 25). I'd trade Noah, Hughes, Gooden, & our pick for him and a re-signed Corey Maggette.

I'm certainly not writing him off, it's just that this was his first year as the #1 post option so I can't really classify him as someone that "consistently" puts up those kind of numbers yet, though at this time next year he'll probably be there.