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> Which guard to deal in the off season?
guard trade
This off season, which, if any, guard should the Bulls trade?
Ben Gordon [ 11 ] ** [68.75%]
Larry Hughes [ 2 ] ** [12.50%]
Kirk Hinrich [ 1 ] ** [6.25%]
Thabo Sefolosha [ 1 ] ** [6.25%]
None, they will need the depth [ 1 ] ** [6.25%]
Total Votes: 17
  
madisonsmadhouse
post Feb 22 2008, 07:20 AM
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What say you TalkBulls? With the new found glut of guards for next year, who should the Bulls trade, or should they stand pat?
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RME JICO
post Feb 22 2008, 08:41 AM
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I would have to wait and see how Hughes looks this year. He has been very underwhelming since going over to Cleveland.
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Steve9347
post Feb 22 2008, 08:55 AM
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Get Gordon out of here.
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ZoomSlowik
post Feb 22 2008, 12:32 PM
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Standing pat isn't really an option with that group.

I think Larry Hughes is the least valuable/least likely to play a key role in the future which would lead me to say him. However, because of that (and his contract) he's going to be extremely difficult to move. Gordon on the other hand should have some value, is probably about to get paid more than he's worth, and seems to be a poor fit in our current backcourt setup.
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Chicago Bulls Fr...
post Feb 22 2008, 12:39 PM
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I think its pretty obvious, Ben Gordon.
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MB33
post Feb 22 2008, 02:40 PM
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agree gordon plus draft pick = big man
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dasox24
post Feb 22 2008, 02:50 PM
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Gordon
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eddog2
post Feb 22 2008, 04:03 PM
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QUOTE (steve9347 @ Feb 22 2008, 09:04 AM) *
Get Gordon out of here.


I hate you Steve. How about we all quit hating Gordon and start hating the other guys who have dramtically underperformed this year (Hinrich & Deng). I personally am tired of everyone bashing on Gordon. Get Gordon a true post option and if he still struggles then ship him away. But I don't think that will be the case.

As for Thabo & Kirk, they both combined don't have the game that Gordon does and I'm tired of all this bs. Thabo is taller and a better defender but who on our team can hit the jumper as well as Gordon? Larry Hughes will be a good scorer and could make it seem like we don't need Gordon but who the hell on the Bulls will be hitting 3's if Gordon is gone? It won't be Thabo and it won't be Hughes. Yes Gordon leaves a lot to be desired on defense but I don't want him gone. I guarantee if you put him on a team like Orlando he'd dominate and put up better #'s than Rashard Lewis. The problem is that Chicago hasn't had that post threat.

Anyway, if we were going to trade him and get top value for it we needed to do it last year. This summer we won't be able to squeeze anything meaningful in a trade involving Gordon unless we include another young player in the deal. I personally would try and offer him the same contract he turned down and hopefully we can lock Gordon up long term. And even then I wouldn't trade him unless we for sure were getting a star player.
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Steve9347
post Feb 22 2008, 04:06 PM
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QUOTE (eddog2 @ Feb 22 2008, 04:12 PM) *
I hate you Steve. How about we all quit hating Gordon and start hating the other guys who have dramtically underperformed this year (Hinrich & Deng). I personally am tired of everyone bashing on Gordon. Get Gordon a true post option and if he still struggles then ship him away. But I don't think that will be the case.

As for Thabo & Kirk, they both combined don't have the game that Gordon does and I'm tired of all this bs. Thabo is taller and a better defender but who on our team can hit the jumper as well as Gordon? Larry Hughes will be a good scorer and could make it seem like we don't need Gordon but who the hell on the Bulls will be hitting 3's if Gordon is gone? It won't be Thabo and it won't be Hughes. Yes Gordon leaves a lot to be desired on defense but I don't want him gone. I guarantee if you put him on a team like Orlando he'd dominate and put up better #'s than Rashard Lewis. The problem is that Chicago hasn't had that post threat.

Anyway, if we were going to trade him and get top value for it we needed to do it last year. This summer we won't be able to squeeze anything meaningful in a trade involving Gordon unless we include another young player in the deal. I personally would try and offer him the same contract he turned down and hopefully we can lock Gordon up long term. And even then I wouldn't trade him unless we for sure were getting a star player.

Gotta love those SG who want to make $12 mill - $15 mill per season who can't score unless they have a post option. Why should we pay a guy that much money who has been completely worthless all season long? It seems quite ridiculous.

Gordon can't even start in the NBA, but he wants to get paid almost max? This is a joke. I know you LOOOOVE Gordon, but of the three (Hinrich, Deng, Gordon), Gordon is by far the most one-dimensional and the least valuable.
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ZoomSlowik
post Feb 22 2008, 04:53 PM
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If you get a real post player (which Gooden still isn't, he's not exactly a guy that's going to draw a double team) you don't really need Gordon, you just need someone that can shoot. To go back to the Orlando example, look at what a fairly marginal talent like Hedo Turkoglu (good shooter, not much else previously) has done as Dwight Howard has developed, especially compared to a much more talented player like Rashard Lewis that's putting up his lowest PER in quite some time next to Howard. His scoring, usage, and shot attempt numbers have gone down without a whole lot of difference being made elsewhere. Or use Ray Allen as another example of what happens to a very good scorer that's suddenly not the focus of the offense while playing with an elite big man. Stick Gordon on a team where he's not the #1 or #2 option, which is basically any good team out there, and he's a mid-teens scorer with a low to mid-40's shooting percentage and not much else.

There are plenty of guys out there that can stick open jumpers that aren't a 6-3 shooting guard and aren't making $10 mil a year or more. His supposed value is in his ability to create shots at his own, which he's still really only okay at. The Bulls actually need him as a scorer more than any of the other elite teams, and he's still not a particularly great fit. How many other good teams are going to give him 16+ shots per game to try to put up his numbers? The answer is not many. They still need to find a go-to scorer somewhere, but unfortunately that's really not Gordon. Considering that's all he really brings to the table, that's really not a good thing. If they can unload Hughes on someone then fine, I'd go with that, otherwise deal Ben before you end up losing him for nothing.
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Sanitarium
post Feb 22 2008, 04:54 PM
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why the hell isn't duhon on there. he's garbage and get him out of here.

although id say hughes has to be healthy most of the season for us to consider it
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sport1016
post Feb 22 2008, 06:29 PM
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Du has an expiring contract, pg is a premium position is this league and we aren't gonna pay him more than his current salary to stay...he's as good as gone

Whoever compared Gordon to Ray Allen was spot on. What good is a SG who can score 20-25ppg if because of their D they are responsible for giving up 25-30?

I would rather have pretty good scoring and great D than very good scoring and piss poor D out of that backcourt spot, especially with Kirk being able to handle some of the backcourt's scoring burden.

Given a full season together I would expect Kirk to at least get back to his 16-17 ppg with Thabo able to get 14-15 too...and be one of the top defensive backcourts in the league. Bring me a 6'5 true combo guard off the bench and I think we're good.
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scs787
post Feb 22 2008, 07:18 PM
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Ben Gordon + Defensive skills= Larry Hughes

which also means

Ben Gordon - Chicago Bulls = 2009


its simple math guys come on.

I think the only question now is what do we get for him???

Ben gordon + 1st Round pick= Higher pick???

or

Ben Gordon + or - Noc + 1st round pick= Low post scorer???
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dasox24
post Feb 22 2008, 08:17 PM
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QUOTE (eddog2 @ Feb 22 2008, 05:12 PM) *
I hate you Steve. How about we all quit hating Gordon and start hating the other guys who have dramtically underperformed this year (Hinrich & Deng).

Well, I'd personally say Gordon has underperformed as much as or more than those two you mentioned. Let's compare:

Hinrich - scoring down 3 ppg, minutes down 1.5 mpg, FG% and 3P% down, but everything else is about the same

Deng - scoring down 1 ppg, minutes down 3 mpg, FG% and 3P% down, but everything else is about the same

Gordon - scoring down 2 ppg, minutes up 2 mpg, FG% and 3P% down, assists down 1 per game, but turnovers also down 1 per game

All in all, they've all underachieved about the same on the offensive end. However, another factor is defense, and there's no arguing that Hinrich and Deng are far better defenders than Gordon. An undersized 6'3'' SG that can't defend well is worthless to us, especially when he's not playing well on offense. At least Hinrich and Deng bring other intangibles if they're having an off-night on the offensive end.

Personally, I'd rather have Thabo playing and getting us about 14 ppg, 7 rpg, 3 apg, 1 spg, 1 bpg while shooting 45% and playing far superior defense than Gordon playing and getting us about 20 ppg, 3 rpg, 3 apg, >1 spg while shooting 45%. Oh, and you also have to factor in the fact that Hinrich plays much better with Thabo next to him. In the last 10 games with Thabo (and no Gordon), Hinrich is averaging 20 ppg, 6 apg, and shooting 46% from the field.
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eddog2
post Feb 23 2008, 09:56 AM
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QUOTE (dasox24 @ Feb 22 2008, 08:26 PM) *
Well, I'd personally say Gordon has underperformed as much as or more than those two you mentioned. Let's compare:

Hinrich - scoring down 3 ppg, minutes down 1.5 mpg, FG% and 3P% down, but everything else is about the same

Deng - scoring down 1 ppg, minutes down 3 mpg, FG% and 3P% down, but everything else is about the same

Gordon - scoring down 2 ppg, minutes up 2 mpg, FG% and 3P% down, assists down 1 per game, but turnovers also down 1 per game

All in all, they've all underachieved about the same on the offensive end. However, another factor is defense, and there's no arguing that Hinrich and Deng are far better defenders than Gordon. An undersized 6'3'' SG that can't defend well is worthless to us, especially when he's not playing well on offense. At least Hinrich and Deng bring other intangibles if they're having an off-night on the offensive end.

Personally, I'd rather have Thabo playing and getting us about 14 ppg, 7 rpg, 3 apg, 1 spg, 1 bpg while shooting 45% and playing far superior defense than Gordon playing and getting us about 20 ppg, 3 rpg, 3 apg, >1 spg while shooting 45%. Oh, and you also have to factor in the fact that Hinrich plays much better with Thabo next to him. In the last 10 games with Thabo (and no Gordon), Hinrich is averaging 20 ppg, 6 apg, and shooting 46% from the field.


That's funny. You bring up Gordn's less assists but don't bring up the same thing for Kirk. Kirk has been very disappointing. And Deng has been the most disappointing by far. My whole arguement is what our expectations were going into the season. Going into the year we thought Deng could potentially be an all-star this year especially with the way he finished last year. But he has taken 2 steps back instead of 2 steps forward. Gordon is Gordon. We knew what we were going to get. Sure the things you mention are negatives but we didn't expect Gordon to be an all-star defender this year.

And by the way, Gordon is a late season type player. He's going to finish the year strong. He always does. But the only question is if his teammates will do the same. I hope they do.

Ben Gordon is (was/with Hughes) the only legit 20 point scorer. Why don't you give him credit for what he has done this year. He's shooting 42.8% which isn't great but it is higher then any season except last year. He's shooting 39.7% from the arc which isn't what he normally does but it's pretty good for someone who shoots so many threes. That's a better percentage than Ray Allen. I love how you marginalize the fact that he's committing only 2.3 turnovers this year in more minutes when compared to 3.04 last year. That's a significant improvement. I know that it's because his role is different this year. He's not doing as much of the ballhandling. But he's still being effective as a scorer. And don't forget that he's shooting 91.5% from the free throw line. He's not getting there as much as I want him to but the fact that 2 years ago shot 78.7% and now shoots 91.5% shows the amount of work he puts in to improve his game.


Meanwhile lets see how much Kirk has really stepped back. Kirks averaging 13.3 ppg vs 16.3 ppg last year (which I like. but it's not b/c he's shooting that much less). The thing that is most disappointing about Kirk is that he seems to have lost confidence in his jump shot. He's only shooting 41.2% from the field but what I hate most is that he's only shooting 32.1% from the arc (after shooting 41.5% from the arc last year). If no player on the Bulls can consistently hit their outside shot then it means that Gordon will not get as many good looks b/c defenses will focus on Gordon. So if other players start making their shots we'll start seeing Gordon's game benefit. Kirk's at 6.1 apg which is slightly lower than normal but I never had expectations for him to average 7 or more so oh well.

The whole point of this is that Gordon is not the problem. The problem is everyone else who can't score. When a team only has one scorer it's hard for that guy to do all the scoring especially when he's 6'2". I think Larry Hughes will open up a lot of options for Gordon and hopefully Deng and Hinrich will get fully healthly and start hitting their shots. Then we'll see a more effective Gordon. And we'll see more 6-10 3point shooting nights like the one he threw up last night.
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