First Bulls that needs to be traded!, My vote is for Kirk Options

[eddog2]

Here's how Kirk stacks up against other PG in the league.

7 games of the playoffs,

Kirk Hinrich

37.8% FG, 10.57 PPG, 5.85 APG, 9-28 from 3 (32%), 6 stls (.85 stls) (The only thing he's done well is shoot free throws. But he can't even draw fouls effectively. He's gone to the line 11 times in 7 games. That's just stupid. Quit being a girl and get some contact down low.)


Baron Davis

26.3 PPG, 54% FG, 43.5% 3pt, 6.0 APG, 2.0 SPG (51 free throw attempts)


Deron Williams

18.0 PPG, 44.9% FG, 25.8% 3pt, 9.0 APG, 1.22 SPG, (37 free throw attempts)

Steve Nash

18.7 PPG, 46.1% FG, 45% 3pt, 13.4 APG, (29 free thows)


It's just rediculous that the most important player on our team gets outplayed this bad by the premiere PG's in the league. I don't mind the scoring but the other stuff he is/isn't doing is hurting our team.

Either Kirk needs to go or we need to find a PG and move him to SG. I prefer that he just go in some package with Nocioni and then we draft Mike Conley. However, maybe we just need to trade Kirk & Gordon b/c Mike Conley/Gordon would be a even smaller backcourt.

We need a true playmaker or a PG that makes plays for others. Right now we have neither and that's why we can't get over the hump. So I say make some bold moves now or we are going to be in this situation for several years. Unless we get the number 1 or 2 pick and we get a playmaker, we are going to have to rely on hitting jumpers to win. And without a PG to create open jumpers at will it will be hard to win titles. I pray for the number 1 or 2 pick but if not Kirk has to go.

No only will he be very overpaid next year, but he hasn't really shown any improvement in his game other than hitting the 3 at a better clip. His assits haven't gotten better, I would argue that his defense hasn't really improved. Nothing about his game other than his shooting % showed improvement. At least with Gordon and Deng you could see the improvement. He's turning 26. I really don't see him becoming a premiere PG. So trade him will his value and contract are relatively high and start this thing over before you waste 3 more years off Wallace and Deng.

[rangercal]

Keep this core:
Wallace C
Deng SF
Tyrus PF
Thabo SG
Lottery Pick


see what you can get for a Gordon/Hinrich and Nocioni Deal.

[TeaLeafReaderII]

holy overeaction batman

[ZoomSlowik]

God, could we come up with some higher standards? Maybe we should trade Gordon because he isn't Kobe or Wade, or trade Deng because he isn't Lebron or McGrady. Geez, even Davis sucked until like the last two months, what with the constant injuries, poor shooting percentages, and all around Marbury-like numbers without wins.

No, Kirk is not a top 5 PG, but he's not totally awful either. Just be glad we don't have Derek Fisher or Speedy Claxton as our starting PG.

Conley MIGHT be better in the long run, but it's unlikely he'll be that great as a rookie. He's got nice vision and quickness, but he's pretty undersized and his jumper leaves a lot to be desired. He's going to either need to bulk up a fair amount to take the pounding in the lane or have Iverson-like toughness. Plus playing with Oden tends to help your cause a little...

[TeaLeafReaderII]

This team just needs a solid post player to take the pressure off the guards...

[ChWRoCk2]

This team just needs a solid post player to take the pressure off the guards...

<----------------------------





or Hawes.

I actually think we could use some taller guard that can man up kinda like Corey Brewer.
- Of course if we took him which is unlikely you could assume someone is traded from our many guards we have.
- I just love this kid, outstanding on pressuring defender and improving on offense.

I kinda hope with our 3 second round draft picks that we use them to somehow trade up to round one to get a post player towards the end of round one, how we go about doing this Im not sure but there seems to be numerous options of post players in this draft that can score.

[eddog2]

This team just needs a solid post player to take the pressure off the guards...

We don't need a solid post player, we need a great post player. There is a difference. An all-star quality post player will maybe put them over the hump but just an average post player isn't going to change things much in the windy city.

As for Kirk, I don't want an average PG. You need an average PG when you have Kobe or Wade. You need a star PG when your team is built with a bunch of complementary scorers and up and coming talent. I've said it since Kirk was a rookie and I'll continue to say it until he proves otherwise, the guy is not a real PG. He's a SG much like Gordon who is not tall enough or good enough (although Gordon is good enough to score) to be a great scorer in the league. His passing leaves a lot to be desired. His playmaking leaves even more to be desired.

I would love to trade him and get Conley. Maybe even package him and Gordon or Nocioni (or all 3) for Al Jefferson, Rajon Rondo, & Ratliffs expiring contract. Would Ainge go for that? Rondo is not a great shooter but he's a better passer and he's only going to get better. Not to mention he can drive to the basket with ease. He's super quick and gets steals in bunches by playing the passing lanes.

[ChWRoCk2]

I would love to trade him and get Conley. Maybe even package him and Gordon or Nocioni for Al Jefferson, Rajon Rondo, & Ratliffs expiring contract. Would Ainge go for that? Rondo is not a great shooter but he's a better passer and he's only going to get better. Not to mention he can drive to the basket with ease. He's super quick and gets steals in bunches by playing the passing lanes.

Conley would be a great pick I must admit.

Beyond Al Jefferson/Rondo which I just dont see why Celtics would move him (Jefferson in general) since he is one of their younger center pieces, I know the Knicks are trying to get rid of Channing Frye/Nate Robinson.

Both contracts are pricy but Frye is 6'11" still young and fills the need of a post player who can score. Robinson I cant say I pay all that much attention, we all know he can dunk, I know he was great at Washington. Knicks might even consult us since we have been trade partners with them in the past.

All of this banks on if we dump some contracts (Malik, PJ?, Victor who doesnt even play, etc)

Just another option.

[ZoomSlowik]

We don't need a solid post player, we need a great post player. There is a difference. An all-star quality post player will maybe put them over the hump but just an average post player isn't going to change things much in the windy city.

As for Kirk, I don't want an average PG. You need an average PG when you have Kobe or Wade. You need a star PG when your team is built with a bunch of complementary scorers and up and coming talent. I've said it since Kirk was a rookie and I'll continue to say it until he proves otherwise, the guy is not a real PG. He's a SG much like Gordon who is not tall enough or good enough (although Gordon is good enough to score) to be a great scorer in the league. His passing leaves a lot to be desired. His playmaking leaves even more to be desired.

I would love to trade him and get Conley. Maybe even package him and Gordon or Nocioni (or all 3) for Al Jefferson, Rajon Rondo, & Ratliffs expiring contract. Would Ainge go for that? Rondo is not a great shooter but he's a better passer and he's only going to get better. Not to mention he can drive to the basket with ease. He's super quick and gets steals in bunches by playing the passing lanes.

Kirk is not an "average PG". "Average" point guards don't average 16 and 6 every year. He's not a superstar dynamo but he's more than capable of being a starting point guard on a contender.

Not a chance we get Jefferson, they'd want A LOT if they were going to trade him. 22 year old double-double post guys that still haven't hit free agency just don't get traded very often.

Conley is not "the savior", we're not suddenly going to be a 60-win team if we draft him. He MIGHT be there in 2 years, of course by then some of our core could price themselves onto another roster.

[eddog2]

Conley would be a great pick I must admit.

Beyond Al Jefferson/Rondo which I just dont see why Celtics would move him (Jefferson in general) since he is one of their younger center pieces, I know the Knicks are trying to get rid of Channing Frye/Nate Robinson.

Both contracts are pricy but Frye is 6'11" still young and fills the need of a post player who can score. Robinson I cant say I pay all that much attention to but he was great at Washington. Knicks might even consult us since we have been trade partners with them in the past.

Just another option.

I'll pass on both. Especially Nate. Frye is decent but he just really didn't impress me much this year. In his first season his stock was through the roof. Too bad Zeek didn't trade him then.

As for Jefferson, your probably right (but I doubt he's untouchable). If they get Oden or Durant they might want to think about starting over and trying to win titles sooner. I know Ainge loves Durant so that's probably who he's taking if he has a chance. If he gets Durant, you'd have to assume he'd want to move Pierce but with that contract that's not likely. Probably the only way to move Pierce is to throw Jefferson in a deal.

Wally is also a player who is making too much on their team but who is not likely to be worth much in a trade. Ratliff's expiring contract is big and if he ever plays again could be a nice addition to the Bulls. If not he comes off the book in the year the Bulls need relief the most (to sign Deng and Gordon if he's still around).

Kirk is not an "average PG". "Average" point guards don't average 16 and 6 every year. He's not a superstar dynamo but he's more than capable of being a starting point guard on a contender.

Not a chance we get Jefferson, they'd want A LOT if they were going to trade him. 22 year old double-double post guys that still haven't hit free agency just don't get traded very often.

Conley is not "the savior", we're not suddenly going to be a 60-win team if we draft him. He MIGHT be there in 2 years, of course by then some of our core could price themselves onto another roster.

Kirk in my mind has already priced himself onto another roster b/c he doesn't have the game to make $11 million. Gordon shouldn't make that much and if he does then he should be gone as well. We have to keep Deng and we likely can't trade Wallace so it will be hard to keep everyone.

As for Conley, you underestimate what he's going to do in the league. He's going to set the league on fire if not his first year then his second year like Deron or for sure in his 3rd. Either way, he's going to be way better than Kirk in the long run and for me that is enough to start making bold changes. However, if we get him I think both Kirk and Gordon have to go b/c if a Kirk/Gordon backcourt is too small Gordon/Conley will make them look like giants. We need to trade Kirk/BG to get a great SG or a great PF. That means T-mac or KG or someone like Al Jefferson/& and expiring contract. .

Conley threw up better numbers as a freshman then Williams did. He shot 52%. His outside shot isn't there but he's a pass first PG and a damn good one at that. 6.1 assists to only 2.2 turnovers. 2.2 steals per game. All as a freshman. Those are some rediculous stats. What did Kirk average? Kirk had a better sophmore season then he did Junior or Senior in terms of distributing the ball. His soph year he averaged 6.9 assits, his junior year 5.02 and his senior year 3.5. Did they realize something then that the Bulls haven't. That he's not a real PG and he should be playing SG?

Get the trade done Paxson. We'll still have Thabo at SG/PG and Duhon at PG. With a year of work in the offseason, Thabo should be much improved. We might need to add a good 3 point shooter off the bench but I'm sure we could find one if we look hard enough.

And for the record "60 win teams" don't mean anything unless you get it done when it matters. Just ask the Mavs.

[scatterbrain]

Now I am not saying that anyone on our team is irreplaceable, but I figured I'd make your statements a little more logical. I took Kirk this year and compared him with who I thought would be your top choice out of the current all-stars you compared him with (in the same year of their career). Did the same with Ben. Reason he wasn't compared with Kobe or Lebron I am assuming are obvious.

Kirk Hinrich
year 4:
80 80 35.5 .448 .415 .835 0.4 3.0 3.4 6.3 1.2 0.3 2.39 3.40 16.6
Steve Nash
year 4:
56 27 27.4 .477 .403 .882 0.6 1.6 2.2 4.9 0.7 0.0 1.82 2.20 8.6
Now... he switched teams after 2 years. So to be very nice here is Nash after 4 years with Dallas and 6 total:
82 82 34.6 .483 .455 .887 0.6 2.5 3.1 7.7 0.6 0.0 2.79 2.00 17.9


Ben Gordon
year 3:
82 51 33.0 .455 .413 .864 0.4 2.7 3.1 3.6 0.8 0.2 3.04 3.10 21.4
Tracy McGrady
year 3:
79 34 31.2 .451 .277 .707 2.4 4.0 6.3 3.3 1.1 1.9 2.03 2.50 15.4

Stats are not the only thing to consider, but they definitely aren't unimportant. I make wrong decisions all the time in general , but I'd be happy with those guys. Stars have to start somewhere. I wouldn't die if we got rid of either (regardless of my avatar and sig, lol), but I think we can continue to develop them if Paxson and company choose that route and contend for titles. As for turnovers... 2.39 and 3.04 (respectively) isn't exactly awful. One would assume our staff, playing time with each other (which in my mind includes not breaking up the young core of the team), and general experience would bring those averages down some. They are kids in the biggest sport situation of their life and choked a little (or quite a bit) against the team in the east. I'm going back to bed for an hour or two... it's Friday!

[scareybullsfan]

I'll pass on both. Especially Nate. Frye is decent but he just really didn't impress me much this year. In his first season his stock was through the roof. Too bad Zeek didn't trade him then.

As for Jefferson, your probably right (but I doubt he's untouchable). If they get Oden or Durant they might want to think about starting over and trying to win titles sooner. I know Ainge loves Durant so that's probably who he's taking if he has a chance. If he gets Durant, you'd have to assume he'd want to move Pierce but with that contract that's not likely. Probably the only way to move Pierce is to throw Jefferson in a deal.

Wally is also a player who is making too much on their team but who is not likely to be worth much in a trade. Ratliff's expiring contract is big and if he ever plays again could be a nice addition to the Bulls. If not he comes off the book in the year the Bulls need relief the most (to sign Deng and Gordon if he's still around).
Kirk in my mind has already priced himself onto another roster b/c he doesn't have the game to make $11 million. Gordon shouldn't make that much and if he does then he should be gone as well. We have to keep Deng and we likely can't trade Wallace so it will be hard to keep everyone.

As for Conley, you underestimate what he's going to do in the league. He's going to set the league on fire if not his first year then his second year like Deron or for sure in his 3rd. Either way, he's going to be way better than Kirk in the long run and for me that is enough to start making bold changes. However, if we get him I think both Kirk and Gordon have to go b/c if a Kirk/Gordon backcourt is too small Gordon/Conley will make them look like giants. We need to trade Kirk/BG to get a great SG or a great PF. That means T-mac or KG or someone like Al Jefferson/& and expiring contract. .

Conley threw up better numbers as a freshman then Williams did. He shot 52%. His outside shot isn't there but he's a pass first PG and a damn good one at that. 6.1 assists to only 2.2 turnovers. 2.2 steals per game. All as a freshman. Those are some rediculous stats. What did Kirk average? Kirk had a better sophmore season then he did Junior or Senior in terms of distributing the ball. His soph year he averaged 6.9 assits, his junior year 5.02 and his senior year 3.5. Did they realize something then that the Bulls haven't. That he's not a real PG and he should be playing SG?

Get the trade done Paxson. We'll still have Thabo at SG/PG and Duhon at PG. With a year of work in the offseason, Thabo should be much improved. We might need to add a good 3 point shooter off the bench but I'm sure we could find one if we look hard enough.

And for the record "60 win teams" don't mean anything unless you get it done when it matters. Just ask the Mavs.

Wrong.


Wrong, wrong, wrong.


Wrong.


Wow, you are so wrong.


Wrong.

Let me guess, you're going to tell me to get that spiff out of here? Where did you even come up with that moronic euphemism.

Wrong.

[Chicago Bulls Fr...]

I like your idea if only there was some way we could lose kirk and draft Mike Conley. Dude is quicker than hell. He doesn't get rattled even as a freshmen yet but I think he could step in right away and help out an NBA team. We could use Kirk to get a bigman in a package deal maybe.

[eddog2]

Wrong.
Wrong, wrong, wrong.
Wrong.
Wow, you are so wrong.
Wrong.

Let me guess, you're going to tell me to get that spiff out of here? Where did you even come up with that moronic euphemism.

Wrong.

Why don't you post an opinion of why I'm wrong instead of this bullshit post. I love when people try and say your wrong but don't have anything good to say to back it up. Let me guess! You love George Bush for that same reason.

Take your 28 posts and come up with something better. Something that takes a little more thought. I'm being realistic. The Bulls need changes. If they don't have a star they need a better PG to create shots. It's that simple. You can try and avoid it and disagree with the players I think will improve the Bulls but don't post BS like this.

[Balta1701-B]

If Mr. Conley falls to our pick, this type of talk would make sense. First of all, I seriously doubt that even in this draft, he's going to fall to # 8 or #9. There are just too many teams that need a point guard, and he's going to be the #1 point guard on everyone's board, which means we'd be dealing something to move up and get him.

The nice thing about dealing Mr. Hinrich is that because of his salary, we'd have to get a $10 million a year guy back for him. While there are a lot of guys making $10 mil a year who don't deserve it, there are some who do, and hopefully that'd be what we'd wind up with.

That said, Mr. Hinrich is far from the most overpaid player in the league, and is far from a bad starting point guard to have. He's not the #1 in the league offensively, but he may well be the #1 or #2 point guard in the league defensively (I think it probably comes down to him or Chauncey).

No matter how disappointing this series is...this is not a time to panic. 49 wins, best since the dynasty years. 2nd round of the playoffs. And that's with a 37 year old power forward, a 19 year old power forward behind him, a 21 year old talented SF, and a 23 year old tiny shooting guard. This team is only going to get better.