I had heard that they were interested in a ton of cap space, and with a loss like that it doesn't surprise me. However, Sarver also wasn't exactly a free-spender even without the state of the economy, and the flat out sale of their first round picks has sapped the team of young talent and depth.

Zach Randolph, Jason Kidd and John Stockton also had the surgery, and probably a bunch more of late if I tried to research it more. Not everyone gets a full recovery from it, but if you do you can still have a productive career. Amare was also a lot younger than most of the guys that had it, giving him a better chance for a full recovery. If he's showing no ill effects 3 years later I can't imagine it's a major issue.



It doesn't really matter what his other offers are if the Bulls choose to let him go. They don't appear to be inclined to approach the luxury tax to retain Gordon, not with the team playing the way it has the last two years. I'd much rather pay the tax because of Amare than Gordon, I would hope the team feels the same way.



If we still had those pieces on the roster we wouldn't have the cap space (Tyrus and Thabo would account for $10 mil in cap holds in 2010), at least not without dumping Hinrich or Nocioni for an expiring deal. Plus that approach has worked out SOOOO well for the Bulls so far.



Given their lack of bulk/strength and fairly poor basketball IQ, it's far from a lock. Even if they do, they're relatively comparable to Tyson Chandler, who despite being a solid defender isn't a big enough difference maker to help New Orleans become a solid defensive team (they've allowed well over 45% shooting each of the last 3 years).



Hughes' problems have little to do with his attitude, he's just not that good of a player. He's a career 41% shooter that still jacks up shots without a conscience, the only reason he ever cracked 15 points a game is he could fire away with impunity on bad teams. Why don't I just compare Amare to Shaq, that has just as much validity if not more.



If you pass on the Amare deal, you better be damn sure that this current core is actually going to take you somewhere, because they won't have the opportunity to add someone significant for quite a while if they pay to keep them all around. They haven't exactly done a whole lot to make you think that this is a championship core, so you better do something. They're especially screwed if Gordon walks because they won't have the cap space to replace him. I'm sick and tired of seeing the Bulls mired in mediocrity because they don't have the balls to make a move and have this need to keep their mediocre core intact.

Amare gives them a major opportunity to boost their core and is by far the biggest impact move out there. Just look at how much Gasol helped the Lakers improve and then consider that Amare is a better player. Acquiring Stoudemire gives you a much better foundation to work with between him and Rose and you have a lot more margin for error with the rest of their roster, and he's still young so you don't exactly have to win right now. There really isn't a particularly good chance that the Bulls will find a better fit than this in the near future and eventually they're going to need to get some more help for Rose.

Wouldn't the Bulls have to pay Luxary tax if they get Amare and then say we sign him to that max deal? What about our MLE that we could offer which as something like 5.2 Mil. How does that work out?

If they add any salary at all this year they're over, they're pretty damn close to it. I'm sure if it happens they'll try to add enough scrubs (ie Cedric Simmons) to stay under it.

For next year and the near future it's a bit harder to guess. If you add Amare and subtract the rumored out-going players as well as Ben Gordon that leaves them at $64 mil in payroll, about $7 mil under the luxury tax (that number is a bit of a guess). Keep in mind that also doesn't factor in any other potential salary dumps. After that Amare's monster extension becomes a factor, but they have $35 mil or less in committed salary over that period even with Hinrich and Nocioni on the roster with a luxury tax rate that should be around $71 mil. If they're determined to do it they can avoid it.

Basically though, with the guys they currently have, if you swap in Amare for Gooden's Contract, that means a number of things are going to happen.

1. We will not have the MLE to play with this summer without going over the Luxury Tax. In other words, our team only changes this summer if we can make a trade.

2. We will be able to use the MLE after 2010 without hitting the luxury tax, but only if we hold on to Larry Hughes through then and let his contract expire. We should still have the MLE even if we extend Amare.

3. Gordon is guaranteed to walk. We could still make the same offer to Gordon this offseason as we made last offseason. And frankly, given the state of the economy and the fact that most of the teams with cap space are shooting for 2010 and those that aren't are either trying to save money (Memphis) or already have fairly good shooting Guards (Portland, Miami) I struggle to see how Gordon is going to beat that offer on the open market.

Two things...

1) We would still have the MLE under the luxury tax in 2009, though not by much. If you subtract Tyrus and Thabo from our salary commitments and add Amare you're at a hair over $65 mil and likely don't have a first round pick to add. The MLE is about $5.6 mil with the luxury tax at a hair over $71 mil. those numbers may change a bit, but even if it's a hair off I would hope that $1 mil wouldn't be a killer to the team. The major issue is going WELL over the cap or being over the cap for multiple seasons with no hope of getting under it. Neither of those appear terribly likely thanks to Hughes' monster deal coming off the books next year.

2) If we didn't make the trade and made that $10 mil a year offer to Gordon, we'd be in basically the same position. The Bulls are at a bit over $56 mil in committed salary if they do absolutely nothing, add that money for Gordon and you're at $66 mil, plus you'd still have a first round pick to pay. Then you still can't use the MLE without hitting the luxury tax and you're stuck with the same mediocre core. Plus it still assumes that Gordon wants to come back and that the team wants him back, something that hasn't appeared to be the case. If he walks they're royally screwed.

Basically it comes down to whether you want to spend the next 2 or more years with this same mediocre core or of you want to add an elite big man to the roster at a pretty reasonable cost in terms of talent. The monetary issues come out about the same. I'll take the big guy every time without a second thought. A team struggling to even get the 8th seed in the eastern conference really isn't in a position to stand pat.

Side note- I'm going to split the Amare-related stuff out and merge it with the other thread...

I won't be upset if they make the deal. Amare definitely isn't a scrub and it will be pretty fun watching him play with Rose. But I won't be upset if they don't make the deal either. I think Tyrus on Noah are going to keep improving and if they don't? Well then at least we get rid of an incompetent GM.

Gasol and KG play both ends of floor and actually have some leadership qualilties. I would take either of them way before taking Amare.

I won't be upset unless Amare goes to Detroit or Miami (The teams I love to hate). My only wish is that if he doesn't come to us he stays in Phoenix. Kerr probably knows by now what offer is best for them but will wait until after the All Star Game to announce anything. There is a way to get both the Suns and Bulls under the cap with a trade for Stoudemire.

If we don't get him, that means there sticking with TT and Noah and hoping that within the next 3-4 years those guys will be in their primes and we will be able to win a championship. With Amare, you obviously UP those chances quite a bit. KC kind of pissed me off the other day when he said he wouldn't make the trade because it doesn't make you a championship team. Well uh.. No spiff, there isn't a trade scenario that would make you a championship team but Amare sure as heck gives you a better chance.

I doubt that if we don't get Amare now we'll be counting on TT and Noah to be our future starters. Keep in mind that in 2010 we have that very big free-agent year. Plus, everyone knows that Chris Bosh is very unhappy at Toronto. If we don't get Amare now, I'd be looking for Bosh to land in Chicago eventually. However, I'll have to agree with you on being mad if he goes to Detroit or Miami. Gag me.

Alright, a new member! Hopefully you can be a regular. The thought of relying on Tyrus and Noah in our front court for many more years isn't exactly appealing to me. I've always thought TT would be pretty awesome at the SF. But idk if that would ever happen..

I like the thought of TT at SF as well. He's certainly athletic enough...but we have Deng there. Possibly a back-up? That would only be if we could find a suitable starter at the 4, though. It's really too bad that we're going to have to give him up for Stoudemire because he's showing his upside right now...of course, at the worst possible moment. Knowing our luck, right after we trade him away he'll start dominating for the rest of his career.

I'm not going to quote the whole damn thing again, just pick out a couple of points...

-If they offer Gordon the same deal they did last off-season, they will be pushing against the luxury tax. They already have $56 mil in commited salary for next year, adding Gordon takes them up to $66 mil with a couple of draft picks left to pay. They wouldn't even be able to use their MLE without going into luxury tax territory under that scenario.

-I don't know why you keep comparing Amare to Wallace, they're not even close to the same player or remotely close to the same stage of their career. 6 years is a hell of a difference, and even if you want to make the argument that they're both only useful on one end of the floor I'd rather have Amare's D than Wallace's offense.

-I edited the Tyrus/Noah comment after you posted it. They're better than Amare, but I really don't see them being good enough to take the Bulls from a bad defensive team to a good one all on their own, not when they can't guard real centers or possibly perimeter oriented bigs as well. Given that Amare is a far better scorer, they really have to be elite defenders to warrant not making that exchange.

KG clearly was a better player, he's extremely rare though. If you're going to wait for a guy that's dominant on both ends you're going to be waiting a while. Gasol was at worst on par with Amare when he hit the market. You don't remember all of the crying about how soft he was and how little D he played last year? Or about how little an impact he was having in Memphis and how overpaid he was? They're essentially the same player, both are mobile bigs that are suspect on D but are serious difference makers on offense (though Gasol has more of a low-post game while Amare is more of a slasher/finisher). If you look at the type of numbers that opposing bigs typically put up on Gasol, they've regularly been in the same neighborhood as Amare's numbers. With the type of offense they both put up you can live with it though.

Basically I've watched these guys enough to know that I'd much rather see Amare on the roster. I know that he can put up 22-9, if not more, for the Bulls on a pretty regular basis, while we're merely hoping that our guys can eventually do something like that. We've been griping for several seasons about the lack of an impact move to bring in a star, and now here we are with a chance to get one.

Ugh, the thought of Tyrus playing at SF makes me want to vomit. Playing him at that spot limits his strengths while focusing on his weak points. If he lines up at SF he's regularly going to be a lot farther away from the basket where he'll have fewer opportunities to use his athleticism to get easy dunks or tips on offense and blocks on defense. It will also force him to drive more to get opportunities inside or take a ton of jumpshots, two things that he's at best mediocre at doing. His skillset really profiles more as a PF, and his quickness is much more of a standout skill there and creates more mis-matches.

TT is starting to get used to being a PF, no need to change his position and mess him up even more. He's a PF and if somehow he stays in an Amar'e deal, Amare could play center where he is still really productive.

Yeah...well, he could still be a slasher and go to the hoop at will. I'm not saying I actually want this. He is def. getting better at the 4 and will only continue to get better. I would be very happy with a starting 5 of Rose, Gordon/Hinrich, Deng, Tyrus, and Amare. You're right for the most part...the only thing I disagree with would be that he doesn't always have to take outside shots (even though his mid-range shot has improved) because he can still take it to the hoop using his athleticism.