I agree with that whole-heartedly, no reason to totally destroy this team. Gasol is a hell of a player and is a nice fit, but if they start asking for Hinrich/Deng/Gordon, Tyrus/another one of those players, and the pick, then we should tell them to piss off. They'll have a hard time finding a better package than what we'd have to offer from someone else.

The only thing that worries me is that Duhon might get even more minutes, and I don't see that working in our favor. He's a very good backup PG, but I really don't want to see what happens if he's asked to carry a heavier load.



Absolutely not, that situation would be ideal, but I don't think it's an attractive enough package. If keeping Hinrich, Gordon, and Deng were a must, it'd probably have to be Noc, Tyrus, and Brown to make it work. I just don't see Noc, Brown, and the Knicks' pick being enough unless New York absolutely tanks.

Yeah, a guy with a career scoring average of 14.6 points a game is useless, he has no offensive ability at all...

I'm sorry, but since when is shooting 3's when you're covered that big an asset? A miss is a miss, a make is a make. I'd much rather have a guy that is going to take shots when he's open than a guy that forces it. If you're covered either don't shoot it or find a way to get open. He's not Lebron James, he's not Kobe Bryant, he's not Gilbert Arenas, he's not Dwayne Wade. We don't need him doing that, we have numerous guys that can do some damage, we don't need one guy trying to carry the team. Plus that entire position is subjective, there's no real evidence anywhere to support that theory.

And for someone that is so "anti-clutch", Hinrich has been money in the playoffs so far in his career, with averages of 20.8 points and 6.75 assists. I really fail to see what the problem is with a PG that's good for 15 and 6 with fewer turnovers than our "clutch" SG.

Plus, could you possibly take a smaller sample size? I don't really care what a guy does over a 10 game stretch in the middle of othe regular season, especially when it's a guy that's as streaky as Gordon. Tell me what they do over the course of the year or in the playoffs, since that's what really matters. Plus if Gordon were really that clutch, he would have bailed us out in some of these games that we lost because we blew a big lead.

Gordon is a good offensive player, but he's by no means a superstar that carries a team. Hinrich isn't either, but at least he brings something else to the table when he isn't scoring.

Absolutely agree.

The 6 more ppg that gordon scores are outweighed by hinrich's defense and decision making alone, let alone his assists, good size for his position as opposed to BG, and the fact that he's already signed to a reasonable contract and Gordon is going to ask for much more very soon.

You're also correct to say that neither could ever be a franchise player. Gordon is best suited as the second option and hinrich probably as the third, same as noc. Deng does have a chance to be a franchise player though. He needs to either develop a post up game or a three point shot (or both) to do so, but another thing holding up his ascent is gordon. Deng has turned into eddy curry, meaning when he starts fast he doesnt stay aggressive. I cant remember which game, but one time last week he had 12 pts in the first quarter. You have to keep feeding him those nights. I sat there frustrated, watching gordon dribble out the shot clock and repeatedly swinging it into the corner away from deng while the offense grew stagnant. Has anyone else noticed that when we have blown these leads lately it's because gordon cant get anything going, so we FINALLY go back to deng and he misses a long jumper? That's bc he's cold bc he hasnt shot the ball in 15 mins.

Gordon is obviously a great scorer, but i still think he's better as a 6th man. He's better if you can put him in to go on tares, as leaving him out there during his droughts makes the offense stagnant. Anyone notice deng's avg has dropped .7ppg since gordon's bee starting?

Thanks for stealing my rebuttal!

So why and when did the Kirk hate come about? I'm still baffled at the overall magnitude of it...

Some people have never really been big Hinrich fan, just like others have never been huge Gordon fans (For the record, I don't consider myself a Gordon hater, he's definitely improved this year. I just don't think he's god's gift to basketball and think he'd be a bit easier to replace). However, I think it really got bad during that stretch right after his injury where he went 3-9, 2-11, and 1-11 in consecutive games and then came up with a 6-20 night with a good game sandwiched in between.

I think it's the fact that Kirk doesn't have a definite role in the NBA. He's not a shooting guard, because he doesn't shoot well enough, and he's not a point guard, because he doesn't protect the ball and get enough assists... he's a 2-guard when this team is looking for him to be a point guard.

On a side note, an interesting part of Mike McGraw's column in todays Daily Herald

Skiles is denying the rumours of a trade for Gasol with Gordon involved. Lil' Ben has called Pau the missing piece to the puzzle so that the Bulls can be contenders. Heres the link -

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/basketball/...ullnt25.article

I don't see how you could say that, he's averaging 2.3 turnovers per game, less than Gordon and and only .3 more than Noc and .5 more than Deng, and he's also posting 6.3 assists right now. There are only 16 players in the league averaging over 6 assists per game, and 5 of them aren't even point guards, they're scorers that have the ball in their hands basically the entire game (Wade, Lebron, Arenas, McGrady and Iverson). Of those 16 players only Chauncey Billups has fewer turnovers per game, and only 6 of them average under 3 turnovers per game. He's also 20th in the NBA in assist/turnover ratio, and half of the guys ahead of him get less than 30 minutes per game. Kirk's not spectacular, but he's very efficient, and he provides more scoring punch than a number of these guys, and plays pretty solid defense at the point. There are really only 6 or 7 point guards that are definitively better than Kirk.

Defense or not if we get Gasol we need Gordon more than Hinrich. Gasol and Wallace would be defensive stoppers down low. Thabo can take over the defensive responsibilities that Kirk previously had. I still would like to get another point guard in the deal. A "true" pg. Someone who passes and creates shots for others. Unlike Kirk.

As for the turnovers and assist comparison, T-mac, & Wade don't have the ball in their hand all the time. Last time I checked, Jason Williams/Payton & Rafer Alston are the ones with the ball bringing it upcourt. However, unlike Kirk, T-Mac & Wade are offensive forces. They get doubled teamed alot. However, they know how to distribute the ball to the right people at the right time when the double team comes. That's something Kirk doesn't command and it's something he's not good at.

All I'm saying is that Kirk signed for too much money. If we get Gasol we are more likely to win it all with Gordon/Gasol/Deng on offense then we are with Hinrich/Gasol/Deng on offense. Defensively we will be fine b/c we would have Gasol/Wallace to clog up the middle and we still have defensive players like Thabo/Griffin. Deng and Gordon's extensions don't go on the books until 2008/09. So we could be back to back champs by then. Keeping Kirk, Nocioni & Deng means that we won't have enough to resign Deng when the time comes.

If we keep Gordon we will have enough to resign at least Deng and most likely both. We can also unload Wallace in the final 2 years of his contract if there are any takers. That will free up more money to resign Deng & Ben. When a team is favored to win the championship they often are able to sign key veterans and top players to 1 year minimum contracts as those players try and win a title. That's what the Bulls would be able to do.

Although I don't necessarily love Duhon, he is a fundamental point guard. If we trade Kirk and don't get a starting PG in return we still have Duhon who is capable of distributing the ball. With Deng/Gordon/Gasol that's all i'd want my PG to do anyway.

Are you really trying to argue that their respective offenses don't run through guys like Wade, T-Mac, Lebron, Arenas and Iverson? Cause that's a rather ludicrous argument. It's not really possible to take as many shots as those guys do without being the focal point of the offense. So I guess by that logic the Bulls offense revolved around BJ Armstrong and not Michael back in the day? Come on now. Just because they have another player that can handle the ball doesn't mean that they they aren't the principle focus of the offense and have the ball in their hands for a good chunk of the game.

I don't really see how the creating shots for others/double teams point really matters in this situation since Gordon doesn't do that either. We don't have someone like those players, so I don't see what the point in arguing that is. How many PG's consistently draw a double team? There aren't many, and their teams aren't likely to give them up. Even with guys like Nash and Kidd it doesn't happen all that much (unless he's mid-drive) because of the other threats they have on the team.

That whole salary point isn't true at all. There's no real cap in basketball, so there's nothing stopping them from keeping Deng as well. Hell, Jordan alone used to make more money than most teams, that didn't stop us from keeping Pippen. The Knicks are paying $19 mil a year for Marbury, $14 mil for Francis, $10 mil for Curry, almost $8 mil for Crawford, over $7 mil for Richardson, and $6 mil each for Rose, James, and Jeffries (that's $76 mil to 8 guys, which at a similar ratio would leave us about $40 mil for Deng, Gordon, and Noc, with the max any of them would get probably around $12 mil. Hell, even Lebron and Wade didn't crack $16 per year). It'd put us into luxary tax range, but that can't really be avoided if we plan on keeping our young players long term, regardless of whether we trade for Gasol or not. Plus given the potential market it's not like Gordon is going to be any cheaper in two years, and Wallace would be off the books in 3 years.

No key veteran worth a damn is going to sign a one-year deal when someone else is offering them more elsewhere. The only guys you'll get in that situation are guys like Payton and Malone that are past their prime and desperate for a ring.

The problem with having Duhon at the point in that situation is that teams would sag off of him and pay more attention to Gasol and Deng and would also have another guy that could close out on Gordon, and that issue would be even more compounded with Ben Wallace around for the next few years. You need a PG that is at least a threat to hit the open jumper on a regular basis, something Duhon simply can't do. Playing 3-on-5 on the offensive end is something you just can't do, we'd really need to find another PG if we were to deal Hinrich. That's not typically an easy thing to do, unless you want to overpay for someone like Speedy Claxton or Derek Fisher in free agency.

Gordon would be a nice guy to have around once we have a true post threat, but the same is true for Hinrich. Both are probably better fits with Gasol than Deng since the latter is a heavy mid-range/slashing guy, but Deng also is a solid all-around player with a high ceiling that you'd hate to lose. Honestly, I think the type of deal I'd prefer most is something like Tyrus, Noc and Brown, but I wouldn't exactly be all torn up if Gordon was the one that had to go, and Memphis looks like they need a guard more than forwards since they already have Gay, Warrick, and Miller to play those spots (Miller can probably play the 2 in a pinch, but has mostly been a SF).

Umm I don't think you have that comparison quite right.

Assists per 48 minutes...

Hinrich 8.7
Duhon 8.4
Gordon 5.9
Sefalosha 3.4

By the numbers Kirk is creating way more for others then Ben Gordon is.

Also Ben Gordon is a combo guard as well, so I am not quite sure on where you got the "true PG" thing.

He's saying he wants to deal for a "true PG", like players like Nash, Paul, and Kidd grow on trees...

Ah, I read that as he was saying Gordon was a PG, while Hinrich wasn't, and that Gordon created more for his own players, than Kirk does.

I wasn't saying Gordon was the point guard. Although I do think the offense runs smoothly when the ball is in his hands. At this stage of his career he is to careless with the ball to play the point. Maybe in a few years but not likely.

My whole argument is that I don't think Kirk is a "true PG". Never said Gordon was. I think if we make a trade we need to get a 3rd team involved and somehow get a Deron Williams. I'd even take Luke Ridnour or someone like that who is a cheaper but better substitute for Kirk. Someone who's main responsibility is to get others the ball and create open looks. Kirk is a cheap man's PG. He's really a SG but he's doesn't shoot well enough to be SG. He's a good dribbler but doesn't have the court vision that a true point guard does.

I know Chris Paul, Nash and Kidd don't grow on trees. But if we are going to make a trade we might as well trade Kirk intead of Gordon. 4th quarter . clutch players are just as hard to find. My whole argument is that with Gasol, Gordon is more dangerous while Kirk is still relatively the same player. With Gordon/Gasol/Deng out offense would be multi-dimensional and explosive even if we had Duhon and Wallace at the other 2 positions.

Next years free agent crop has a couple good PG's. What PG wouldn't want to come to the Bulls to play Gasol/Gordon/Deng? So if we are going to go over the cap we can go out an get a real PG. Or use a late draft pick to get Ronald Steele or someone else.

People seem to think it is easy to find a lethal scorer like Gordon. The closest thing we had since Jordan was Jamal Crawford and even Jamal was more inconsistent and not as clutch. Gordon has accomplished everything he has without playing with a low post scorer. Imagine if he had one to play with!