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TalkBulls Forums _ Bulls Talk _ Skiles pondering lineup changes
Posted by: Balta1701-B Nov 13 2007, 11:46 AM
Doesn't it seem like every year, after about 4-5 games of Gordon struggling, we wind up sticking him on the bench until he finds his shot? Seriously, what's with this dude? Why in the world can't we ever get a good November out of him?
And Sefalosha to the inactive list in exchange for Gardner and Griffin...that sure ought to send a message to anyone who thinks that our SG spot would be covered just fine if we had to trade Gordon. Right now, they're saying Thabo isn't even good enough to be on the 12 man roster.
Beyond all that, one comment stood out.
"After what happened right before training camp with all the [Kobe Bryant] rumors out there, to start more would be a really bad thing," general manager John Paxson said. "I'm not going there."
In other words, it's on the current batch of players to dig themselves out of this mess — for now.
"I evaluate every day," Paxson continued. "Time will tell what direction we need to go."
A lengthy players-only meeting called by Adrian Griffin is a start. So are lineup changes, with players confirming Skiles began looking at some of several different combinations in the first of three practice days before a six-game trip begins Thursday night in Phoenix.
"We're not going to do anything crazy," Skiles said. "But is 1-5 the right time? 1-9? It's not even so much the record. It's the way we've played. This is different than wanting to hold, say, two guys accountable or anything like that.
"We have to find a way to get shocked out of our malaise. It's probably going to have to come initially from me and then see what happens."
At least one known lineup under consideration features guard Ben Gordon coming off the bench, according to players.
Skiles also said he would revisit the inactive list, with both Griffin and Thomas Gardner likely to be activated. That could mean struggling second-year guard Thabo Sefolosha could get an unwanted break.
"Our spacing hasn't been good," Skiles said. "So a change may be something that hopefully provides us more spacing. The other thing is we have to get better bench performances. If that means I have to take somebody out of the lineup because I like them matching up against some second-unit guys, then that's an element too."
Posted by: 72-10 Nov 13 2007, 12:16 PM
I think Sef. needs to play more. He hasn't been given enough time, I dont think, to be what he can be. Most teams would die for a player of his type. I think we need to utilize him more. Anyone else?
Posted by: madisonsmadhouse Nov 13 2007, 12:59 PM
I think the ankle problems have put Gordon behind schedule this year...
Posted by: sport1016 Nov 13 2007, 02:51 PM
Obviously in the article they were alluding to using Gordon in the 2nd unit bc of his shooting and matchup problems. He is so deadly when he spends most of his minutes guarding 2nd tier players.
We need to have a big guard out there to start the game and more often. I like thabo out there. But while I expect this to change soon, right now both he and Luol aren't 3pt shooters.
Move Lu to SG and bring in Noc?
Here's my ideal lineup:
Krich
Deng
Noc
TT
Smith
Bench:
BG
Wallace
Noah
Du
sef
I really really like that starting lineup. Still have 2 3pt shooters. And we're only a bit undersized at the 5. And TT should be taking the best offensive big anyway.
Posted by: 72-10 Nov 13 2007, 02:56 PM
I really like that lineup as well. I always wanted Noc to start and I think BG is just better off the bench. That way our starting line looks good, but our bench looks nice with that lineup model as well.
Posted by: 72-10 Nov 13 2007, 02:57 PM
but what about Grey? I def. think he needs to be utilized more. He is a good big man, plain and simple. he is a bit slow, but we need to find where to fit him in, instead of dismissing him.
Posted by: steve9347 Nov 13 2007, 03:25 PM
Sure glad we drafted Sefolosha and not Ronnie Brewer. Another miss by Pax.
Posted by: Chicago Bulls Franchise Nov 13 2007, 04:02 PM
My guess is its either Gordon to the Bench or Big Ben. Most likely it will be him IMO.
PG Kirk
SG Gordon
SF Deng
PF Thomas
C Smith or Noah
We simply don't have a shooting guard capable of coming in for Gordon. It looks like Thabo's career isn't taking off like we all had thought. I'll be damned if we see Duhon in the starting lineup again..
Posted by: DutheDoduhon21 Nov 13 2007, 04:41 PM
i want to see jamesOn at least be activated and get a shot, im sure it will come later in the season, he can shoot better than thabo, havnt seen enough to know about his defense, thabo is probably better. maybe BG being the 6th man will wake him up alittle, i agree with wallace going to the bench as well, you cant even notice him out there because he hasnt been doing anything positive.
Posted by: Balta1701-B Nov 13 2007, 05:09 PM
Is it possible that the what, 5 day layoff here will be enough to help Wallace get over that injury the rest of the way?
Posted by: sport1016 Nov 13 2007, 06:57 PM
I don't think they will send Big Ben to the bench. As much as it shouldn't disrupt and even motivate Gordon bc this has happened to him every single year, is as much as it would disrupt Big Ben and get him down on himself.
I would seriously doubt them benching wallace. I just hope they bring in Noc and not Duhon for BG. I am soo soooo sooooooooo tired of having a consistently undersized backcourt.
Thabo is still young. I think we all have high standards for rooks bc Kirk, BG, Deng, Noc, and even Duhon all came right in and contributed immensely. Let along all of us flashing on the amazing stagnation in the development of Baby Bulls version 1.0 (Crawford, Curry, Chandler) But they all received regular heavy minutes. It is going to take more time for someone like thabo who is not getting a chance to play through his mistakes bc this team always has another option. Don't forget he was slowed in training camp by a hamstring injury.
Posted by: BigEdWalsh Nov 14 2007, 08:59 AM
Krich
Deng
Noc
TT
Smith
Bench:
BG
Wallace
Noah
Du
sef
I like the lineup and think it could work out. Man, I was just looking at the Bulls stats. Looking at FG pct.'s, I couldn't help but think it was like looking at White Sox batting averages early last year. Shooting has been atrocious.
Posted by: madisonsmadhouse Nov 14 2007, 09:15 AM
It is interesting to hear Skiles talking about moving Deng to the two guard spot. The Bulls have played decent D for the most part this year, so getting Noc's fire and post game on the front line, should be a bigger help than the D they lose with Deng matching up with a guard.
Posted by: sport1016 Nov 14 2007, 03:56 PM
if you have TT, Noc, and Deng in the starting lineup one word comes to mind. Versatile.
With those three, the bulls can pick advantageous match ups b/c any of them COULD guard a 2,3, or 4.
TT is fast enough to stay with any sfs and Noc would be better agst stronger pfs if they aren't too tall. There are no teams in the league, besides the celtics, who have firepower at all three spots, so you can hide anyone who doesn't match up well
Posted by: Chicago Bulls Franchise Nov 14 2007, 03:58 PM
I don't like Nocioni starting at all. He has regressed so much over the last two years, that contract they gave him was laughable for a role player, although same could be said for Ben Wallace.. He doesn't do anything for the Bulls other than throw up shots and if they go in, good, if they don't its bad. He plays horrendous defense, and is a step slow on every dribble drive. The one thing he does great on defense is draw charges, thats about it.
Posted by: steve9347 Nov 14 2007, 03:59 PM
FYI, Noc hasn't regressed at all. He was injured last year, and this year has been our best player.
Posted by: Chicago Bulls Franchise Nov 14 2007, 04:00 PM
He has had one good shooting night, thats it! Joe Smith has been our most consistent player this year by far. Nocioni is a role player, not a starter.
Posted by: Balta1701-B Nov 14 2007, 04:12 PM
Looking at the numbers, including numbers per minuted, I'd say it's hard to say Noc has regressed either (keep in mind that this year's numbers are in 6 games)
YR TM G MIN FG% 3P% REB AST PTS Reb/Min AST/min Pts/min
04-05 Chi 81 23.4 0.401 0.258 4.8 1.5 8.4 0.205128205 0.064102564 0.358974359
05-06 Chi 82 27.3 0.461 0.391 6.1 1.4 13 0.223443223 0.051282051 0.476190476
06-07 Chi 53 26.5 0.467 0.383 5.7 1.1 14.1 0.21509434 0.041509434 0.532075472
07-08 Chi 6 21.8 0.431 0.231 4.4 0.8 11.7 0.201834862 0.036697248 0.536697248
G MIN FG% 3P% TOT AST PTS
Totals 222 25.5 0.444 0.358 5.5 1.4 11.5 0.215686275 0.054901961 0.450980392
Posted by: sport1016 Nov 14 2007, 05:06 PM
6 games is a ridiculous sample anyway
Noc was extremely effective as a starter last year. He was avging over 17pts and 6 boards.
Posted by: Chicago Bulls Franchise Nov 14 2007, 06:15 PM
He is a black hole offensively. He shoots way too many three pointers, he doesn't even drive as much as he used to anymore which got him to the foul line. Now its just set shots and or a dribble or two and throw up a wild shot.. I'm still irked at that contract we gave him for a guy that isn't starting and really isn't even the 6th man at this point. Don't get me wrong, he isn't a horrible player, I just think he is overrated by most Bulls fans, and he doesn't play very good defense.
Posted by: TeaLeafReaderII Nov 14 2007, 08:35 PM
Paxson should be pondering a coaching change. This is what, the third time his team hasn't shown up for the season prepared? And the six or seven games the Bulls spot the east every year are the difference between a cake walk to the Eastern finals and getting knocked out in the first or second round.
Or maybe Pax is the one who should go. He gave up on the reasonably priced full of potential Chandler so he could over pay for the exact same player, only clearly on the decline. Then he didn't have the cajones to do anything with PJ's contract. Watch a Celtics game. The passion Garnette is playing with is something to see... he was available... Sam Smith tried harder to get him to Madison Ave. then Pax did...
After that last game I'm wondering if I can call up direct TV and get my $150 for league pass back. If I knew what kind of games the Bulls were going to play, I never would have cut that check.
sigh
I need to relax, its still early. Maybe fiddling with the line up will make things "click"... we can only hope.
Posted by: Chicago Bulls Franchise Nov 14 2007, 09:57 PM
Oh I got a lineup baby
Duhon
Thabo
Griffin
Khryapa
Gray
Now tell me that wouldn't win the finals????????
No but seriously, I can understand the Eddy Curry trade but I never understood why we traded away Tyson Chandler who is a bigger,better, more athletic, younger version of Ben Wallace.. That was indeed John Paxson's biggest mistake IMO. I was one that liked and disliked the KG trade because we would basically be in the exact same situation as if we traded for Kobe. Boston was lucky they had a great young up and coming player in Jefferson to sweeten a deal, the Bulls had Tyrus Thomas who is no Al Jefferson...
The only way I think John can salvage this season is by finally realizing the players we have are not good enough to do it. It has been 3 years with the same players, talking about the core. I'm talking about someone like Gasol. If we can somehow land him or Conley and him I'd be extremely happy. I'd give Wallace in virtually any deal possible but the fact of the matter is nobody wants him as a player and his contract. We've ran into a bad situation. Give them Kirk, Deng,Nocioni, and a 1st round pick for Gasol, Miller, and Conley. That way we keep Gordon who provides the perimeter scoring, and we lose Kirk for a younger Mike Conley who is going to be a star in this league.
Conley
Gordon
Miller
Tyrus
Gasol
Posted by: DutheDoduhon21 Nov 14 2007, 10:03 PM
khyrapa needs to be out of the lineup for good.
i think noc shouldnt start, not because of his play but just because whenever he comes off the bench he is alot better. it just seems like the whole team is off to a slow start this season as usual, we've started of 0-9 before so its nothing to panic about.
Posted by: Chicago Bulls Franchise Nov 14 2007, 10:43 PM
Even if Nocioni did start, which all signs point to yes, where would he play? Don't tell me he is going to start at shooting guard or even Deng.. That is about as bad as it can get.
First of all neither Deng nor Nocioni can play defense against the 2 guards in this league and starting Deng as a shooting guard is about the worst possible thing you can do at this moment considering his shooting struggles and I do believe shooting guards do quite a bit of "shooting."
My lineup after thinking about it over a longer duration would be like so..
PG Duhon
SG Gordon
SF Deng
PF Tyrus
C Noah
My reason: Maybe this gives Kirk a break from all the fouling he has been doing. Maybe if he comes off the bench he can keep that second unit from missing a beat and having Kirk, Smith, Nocioni, and Wallace as your second unit is pretty good. I think Kirk would play a Ginobli like role where we keep Duhon out of the 4th quarter and put Kirk in with the rest of the starters.
With Tyrus and Noah leading the front court you are going to have alot of rebounding, and energy but also a lack of offense and fouling. I want to see these two together for once, I thought hey why not see what they can both do as starters?
Posted by: DutheDoduhon21 Nov 15 2007, 04:34 PM
i read in the mybulls email noc is starting over tyrus.
Posted by: Balta1701-B Nov 15 2007, 08:08 PM
As long as this doesn't cost TT minutes, I'm fine with it for now. It should have been Gordon though.
Posted by: DutheDoduhon21 Nov 15 2007, 08:31 PM
i think it should have been wallace
Posted by: eddog2 Nov 15 2007, 09:01 PM
This should be the starting lineup
Noah
Smith
Deng
Gordon
Hinrich
There's no reason for Nocioni to be in the starting lineup. Let him continue to bring his energy off the bench. I think a Nocioni/Tyrus infusion off the bench would help this team. And Noah plays with more energy than Wallace does. I know Gordon plays good off the bench but that's not where I want to see him going.
Start benching Gordon now and the chances of him wanting to resign a long term extension with the Bulls go way down. If we are going to start benching Gordon we might was well trade him.
As for Kirk, he's been aweful but I still think he'll snap through it and be the decent PG he's always been. The Thabo spiff is just killing me. Not that I want him playing much but I sure don't want Adrian Griffin or Victor on the floor.
As for Ben Wallace, I wouldn't care if he never played for the Bulls again. I never really grew attached to him and I don't think I ever will. I'll always view that signing as the one that sent my favorite Bulls player away (Chandler). All b/c everyone thought Tyson made to much $ ($10 million). Can we trade Wallace for a 2nd round pick?
Posted by: Chicago Bulls Franchise Nov 15 2007, 09:20 PM
Wish we had a low post player...
Posted by: Balta1701-B Nov 15 2007, 09:35 PM
Oh come on dude. The paint is actually where we've been strong this year. Right now I wish we could hit an outside shot. Smith, Noah, and Double-T have all been strong so far, maybe more than we expected.
Posted by: Chicago Bulls Franchise Nov 15 2007, 11:20 PM
I'm talking about an inside back to the basket presence. We don't have a guy that gets us easy shots. Were shooting less than 40 % on the year, a low post guy would help that immensely. When we had Curry, he was a 58-60%'er and we benefited from that.
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