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Posted by: Chicago Bulls Franchise Mar 29 2007, 10:39 PM

Ok, Im calling it, a Tyrus v Lamarcus thread just for discussion. Do you think we still made the right choice with Tyrus? Or do you think we should have kept Lamarcus?

Right now Tyrus is averaging 4.6 ppg 3.4 rpg and 1.1 bpg

Right now Lamarcus is averaging 9.1 ppg 5.0 rpg and 1.2 bpg

It looks as though Lamarcus may have been the better choice by those stats but I beg to differ. Right now I would say Aldridge might help us a tad bit more than Tyrus could because of his low post scoring ability and his 6'10 frame but Tyrus ever since allstar break has definitely grown up and has shown signs of becoming the player I had invisioned later on in his career. In terms of blocking shots, Tyrus is among the top 5 in blocks per 48 minutes but his offensive game is not great right now. The only reason Lamarcus is averaging more points is because he is starting and playing considerably more minutes per game than Tyrus Thomas. In the future I see Tyrus blowing by Lamarcus Aldridge because he is the more physical of the two and if he can just get stronger he will be unstoppable with a low post game.

IMO Tyrus's cieling is around 20 ppg 12 rpg 3-4 bpg and 2 apg

Thats about what I'd say is his Maximum potential.

This is what I feel is like Aldridge's cieling. 21 ppg 10 rpg 2 bpg 3 apg

Pretty close but like I said, I think Tyrus can surpass him within 2-3 years, we won't even be having this discussion after both there careers are over.

But going back to the question, would you rather have Aldridge or Tyrus for the future?

Posted by: TeaLeafReaderII Mar 29 2007, 11:07 PM

I really think Tyrus isn't too far off from finding a nice outside shot. He just needs an offseason or two to perfect it. When he does, I don't think there is going to be any question that he was the better pick.

Posted by: ZoomSlowik Mar 29 2007, 11:10 PM

Wow, you need to put down the Tyrus kool-aid. Kareem and Hakeem are about the only guys EVER to do that for more than one season (well, and probably Wilt, they didn't keep track of blocks back then). He has potential, but that's like Top-50 player ever level. Even his rebounding and block numbers are high in that scenario, and those are his strengths. I would expect something more like Tyson Chandler for the near future, or at least until he shows some kind of ability to consistently create his own shot.

Aldridge has been damn good of late, averging 16.4 points, 8.5 rebounds and 1.69 blocks this month while shooting almost 54%. Yeah, playing time is a factor, but you still have to earn it. Also, realistically with Nocioni out their potential for minutes isn't really that different. Don't get me wrong, Tyrus looks better than I expected, but Aldridge appears to be much farther along at this point, which makes him a safer bet while still having a solid ceiling (which is I believe what I said leading up to the draft).

Yes, it's still WAY too early to make any conclusions, but Aldridge looks like the early leader (and on a side note, Brandon Roy was an absolute steal). However, maybe in 3 years Tyrus is another Shawn Marion while Aldridge is more like Drew Gooden, it's hard to say when both guys are fairly raw.

Posted by: sport1016 Mar 30 2007, 12:43 AM

aldridge
worst case: jamal magloire
best case: chris bosh
Best guess: Juwan Howard......Aldridge looks like a bosh clone, except that in college he didnt appear to be able to carry a franchise...can he develop this? More likely while his moves may resemble bosh's his stats will simply be less significant...think juwan howard....solid, maybe a couple all star games, but not a superstar

TT
worst case: 6'9 Tyson Chandler
Best case: ???????? AK47 wearing a jetpack
Best Guess: Here's the thing about tyrus, as all the analysts say he was the only one in the '06 draft who had enough talent to be a top 10 player in the league. And they are right. He has shown that his unique explosiveness can take over a game and set a tenacious defensive tone. He is the kind of player who could win defensive player of the year and blocking titles for 5 years in a row. However he could also be an undersized 4 without enough perimeter skills to be a 3.

What should the Bulls have done:
First of all, a lot of people approached this topic with who will be a better player. I can assure you that it will be tyrus. I think aldridge could have a good career, even maybe a chris webber quality career. He will probably be a 20 10 or thereabouts guy at his ceiling. But while aldridge is no slouch defensively, I believe once tyrus bulks up a little will transcend the game defensively. We all worried that tyrus would be another chandler bc we all heard he was "raw." While tyrus is raw in the sense he doesnt have refined moves on offense, he already has two things chandler never had that I think we all associated with the "raw" label. His Timing and Hands are amazing compared to chandler. Chandler always had one block a game he rose high for and sent into the seats, but tyrus gets up there for every shot and tips the ball to himself or a guard. He gets in passing lanes and strips balls where chandler would have fouled. We're always complaining about him running the break, but it's bc his basketball IQ and athleticism already add up to a very well rounded defensive player (he can guard 4 positions). I fully expect tyrus to be able to be top 5 in blocks and steals and rebounds (explosive jump + timing = rebounding title) in 4-5 few years, like wallace was in his prime. But tyrus, unlike wallace or chandler, already scores. In only 27 minutes he had 13 points tonight. And he always scores when he gets decent minutes. And this is without a reliable jump shot or post move. Just his timing and athleticism allow him to make so many drives and putbacks around the basket already. In 4 years tyrus is going to one of the most unique and exciting players in the nba. Though he could score as much as aldridge, he probably won't. But he should go down as one of the best defensive players ever.

However, this is not how i choose to approach the debate. If the bulls knew they were getting wallace, aldridge fits perfectly with him bc of his size and inside scoring. If the Bulls were planning on trying to win a championship with wallace they should have picked aldridge plain and simple. But, as we all know, the bulls never expected wallace to leave detroit and tried to rectify said mistake by getting PJ in hopes of a midseason trade. Drafting tyrus puts us in a precarious situation. Because tyrus isnt tall enough to play center, assuming your front line of the future is tyrus, deng and someone, you are now forced to draft a center in the next draft that primarily features post scorers who are power forwards. Unless you hope to play tyrus at center one day, you have to draft a big to backup wallace and be his successor in 2 years. If we had drafted aldridge, who can play the 4 or 5, you would have more players to choose from in this draft.

Personally, I hope we trade the knicks pick unless we're getting oden or hibbert for a veteran center. Tyrus doesnt fit great with wallace, but in the future he could be that franchise player that pundits still argue the bulls need. Imagine having a scorer at the 5 along with tyrus who will be a feared defensive player and can score with deng. Bc of tyrus' versatility he can guard the best player in the front court bc deng can slide over and guard a 4 at 6'9 1/2.

Posted by: madisonsmadhouse Mar 30 2007, 08:17 AM

Ask me in a couple of years, but this is how I see it. Aldridge has a much more polished game today, but a much lower ceiling. Thomas is a freak athlete, who needs to listen to Scott Skiles every second of everyday to learn the game of basketball. If they can hone his ability, and narrow his focus to optimize his game, he is going to be an elite player. The question becomes can they do it? He will be a project. The nice thing is that with the Bulls depth, they can bring him along as they need to.

Posted by: Balta1701-B Mar 30 2007, 10:34 AM

I did this quick analysis and posted it a few days ago over @ http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=55002&st=625# The numbers may have changed slightly (TT did grab a double-double last night), but I think the point still holds.

Either way, neither of these guys came into this season ready to be full time starters on playoff caliber teams. Aldridge has had the luxury of being able to take his time and grow on a team that needs him; that team is pretty desperate for anyone who can play. TT has been stuck on the bench for much of the year on a team that is playoff bound and may get a #2 seed. That's going to depress anyone's numbers, and probably depress anyone's #'s per minute as well.

Overall, I'm leaning more and more towards thinking the Bulls made the right choice. Hopefully next season that begins to be shown more completely.

Posted by: soxfan3530 Mar 30 2007, 11:37 AM

Alridge also plays a lot more than Tyrus. Ill take Tyrus' upside and athletic ability. I still like the choice we made

Posted by: ZoomSlowik Mar 30 2007, 11:42 AM

I wouldn't say that his ceiling is MUCH higher. Most people say that Aldridge has 20-10 potential, and he isn't a slouch athletically. It's hard to get too much better than that as a big man. I would say it is a bit higher because Tyrus appears to be much more likely to be a defensive stopper, but it also looks like Aldridge is more likely to be a major offensive threat, which means Tyrus has to close that gap a bit.

Best case scenarios, I'd say Tyrus turns into Shawn Marion (only switch the steals and blocks) and Aldridge turns into Chris Bosh. You can debate which one you'd rather have, I'd personally lean towards Bosh a bit. Of course the real question is which is more like to get there? The jury is still out on that one...

Posted by: Balta1701-B Mar 30 2007, 12:32 PM

I don't think Tyrus has a shot at developing the kind of outside shot presence and threat that Marion has. If we're looking to the Suns and saying "highest possible ceiling", I think TT fits the Amare role a lot more than the Marion role.

Posted by: madisonsmadhouse Mar 30 2007, 12:39 PM

I think if Tyrus works on it, he could be a hell of a low post scorer, and a great one on one scorer. You cannot teach the explosiveness first step and leaping ability that Tyrus has. If someone sits down with him and teaches his footwork to him, he could be a guy who scores 20-25 a game. That being said, the odds are probably long of that happening, because Tyrus seems to have a pretty short attention span about things. I do think he will settle in the 15 point 12 rebound 2 block area in his career, which will be nice with the guard work the Bulls have.

Posted by: ZoomSlowik Mar 30 2007, 01:21 PM

I'd say he'll be closer to Marion than Amare. I don't think he's ever going to be that kind of post scorer, though he'll also likely be a better defender than Amare is right now. The only real difference I see between him at his peak and Marion is that 3-pointer, and that's more of a style/shot selection difference than anything...



It'd take A TON of work to turn him into a serious scorer at this point. He has virtually no experience/moves with his back to the basket, doesn't yet have a reliable jumper, and lacks the solid ball-handling skills necessary to be an elite slasher. That makes it a little hard to develop into an elite scorer. Impossible? No, but it does seem like a stretch until we at least see some significant progress.

Yes, that last scenario is roughly what I see as a reasonable expectation for him in a few years (though 12 boards is probably a bit of a stretch with his current bulk level, I'd expect more like 9 or 10), basically what Josh Smith gives you right now. Obviously I wouldn't have a problem with that kind of production.

Posted by: sport1016 Mar 30 2007, 01:54 PM

Tyrus reminds me a lot of Jermaine O'neal in the sense that he came in raw but appeared to have immediate ability, and bc of said ability he developed a refined offensive game over a few years.

I don't like comparing tyrus to marion bc he will never have the offensive variety or ball handling. He's not amare bc he's not physically imposing. He's more of a hrybrid, probably closer to garnett (who also came in as a sf/pf and turned into a pf/c).

He will be unique bc he will be more dominant on defense then all three if he bulks up enough to play the 4 consisently. Which he can absolutely do. He's only 20 and I really haven't seen him have any trouble yet anyway. He's so long. Remember how thin Amare and JOneal and Dwight howard were when they came in?

If he can develop a reliable midrange jump shot a la PJ he can use his explosiveness to drive past bigger and slower pfs the way luol and noc have done when matched up on bigger guys. And though he isn't 6'11 like amare, oneal, and howard, driving past rasheed wallace yesterday he showed that his wingspan and explosiveness make up for that.

I don't know about 20-25 points a game, but if he works hard and bulks up I can see 16-18 easily with double digit rebounds, and game changing defense.

I wish we could get him to start working with luol, who is well-known for putting in the most time afterhours at the berto center. Deng has already said he will be working on his lost post game and re-adding the 3 to his game. If tyrus could bulk up with him and work in the low post, if those two could develop good chemsitry, they could become one of the best front lines in the league, probably best in the east.

Posted by: Chicago Bulls Franchise Mar 30 2007, 01:54 PM

I don't understand why 20 and 12 is not feasable for Tyrus as his max potential. Just because I threw this number out there doesnt mean he will average that throughout his career. Kevin Garnet is averaging 23 ppg and 13 rpg so I don't understand your point.

Posted by: ZoomSlowik Mar 30 2007, 02:16 PM

So now he's KG with twice as many blocks? Those projected numbers would put him as the leader for defensive player of the year (since he'd basically be leading the league in rebounds and blocks at those levels) as well as averaging 20 a game, which is a major stretch from his current production/talent level. Has he shown any indication of being THAT type of player yet, especially in the scoring department? I don't know how you can say that. The only guys who have been put up those kind of numbers in recent history are Shaq, Duncan, Robinson, Ewing and Olajuwon (notice all of them are also considerably bigger).

Garnett was light-years better, he averaged 10 and 6 in his first year out of high school. Tyrus had 2 years at LSU and is still not at that level yet. Tyrus has talent, but let's not get carried away here. I'd be pretty happy with 15 points, 9 boards, and 2 blocks, even that would be a huge step up...

Posted by: Chicago Bulls Franchise Mar 30 2007, 07:09 PM

If you remember, Olajuwan had little offensive game to begin with when he came out and developed it as the years went by. Your blowing this whole thing WAY out of proportion. Tyrus was listed as the most athletic freakish player in the draft and he looks like he has the most "potential" out of all of them. Thus meaning his potential stats should be based on his potential or atleast thats what im telling you.

sorry for saying potential so much lol

Posted by: ZoomSlowik Mar 30 2007, 09:01 PM

Hakeem averaged 20.6 points, 11.9 rebounds, 1.21 steals, and 2.68 blocks as a rookie, not quite the same thing.

A lot of his potential is based on his defensive capabilities, I don't think anyone expects him to contend for a scoring title any time soon and they probably shouldn't. Morrison is second among rookies in scoring, but he's far from the 2nd best of the rookies...

Posted by: rangercal Mar 31 2007, 01:37 PM

Hakeem was a year and 1/2 older than Tyrus and played 2 more college seasons. Tyrus is polishing into a stud just fine. I would label Thomas and Deng as the 2 most untouchable players on the Bulls Roster.

Posted by: ZoomSlowik Mar 31 2007, 02:01 PM

You can give him 3 more years, I'd still be SHOCKED if he put up Hakeem-like numbers. We're not exactly talking about a marginal difference in talent/production here...

Plus Hakeem only played one extra year in college, it's not his fault Tyrus red-shirted.

I'm not saying he can't be good, but to put him up there as a potential legend is a bit of a stretch.

Posted by: TeaLeafReaderII Mar 31 2007, 03:32 PM

Tyrus Thomas is a golden god. Are you watching this game?

Posted by: Chicago Bulls Franchise Mar 31 2007, 04:17 PM

Wow, Im not putting him up there with potential legends. 20 points and 12 rpg isn't going to be a stretch for a player of Thomas's potential. I don't know what else to say but the cieling is extremely high for Tyrus as well as it should be which is why he MIGHT be able to put up 20 and 12. Im not listing him in the hall of fame so quit acting like I am. I'm not trying to be an ass but your making something out of nothing and its ticking me off.

This is my last post in this thread.

Posted by: rangercal Mar 31 2007, 04:32 PM

regardless, I'm not sure why you are comparing TT to Hakeem. Either way, there is no doubt in my mind the Bulls took the better player. Next year this thread should be dug up for shits and giggles when Tyrus is getting double the playing time.

Posted by: eddog2 Mar 31 2007, 05:57 PM

He'll never be Hakeem but he doesn't have to be. He's a super freak. He'll be able to average 20 or more points at some point of his career b/c he is just so versatile and he'll get many of his shots on open looks or put backs. If he can learn to slash to the basket and a few post up moves it's definately feasible. The 12 boards per game is also likely at some point in his career. His rebounds per minute in college were the best in the nation. He just has to learn how to not commit the stupid fouls. If he does that he could easily become a 20ppg 12 board 3 block player. He won't put those numbers up every night but he can average those type of numbers.

What impresses me is that he is already starting to seriously improve his FT%. That will be crucial for him if he wants to become a 20+ point scorer b/c he's going to go to the line a lot. He's only shooting 59.4% for the year but over his last six games he's shooting 83% from the line. 69% if you include his last 12 games. I know that doesn't look like much but just watching him his form looks a lot better at the line. Maybe Skiles has been helping him with that.

He had a very solid 27pt 8reb 3blk 3stl (9-11FG 9-10ft) performance tonight.

As for all the talk about him not being as good a shooter as Marion, Marion didn't exactly come into the league and set it on fire from the field. He made only 4 of 22 3's his rookie year (18.2%) and only 25.6% (21 of 82) his soph year in the NBA. And Marion was 22 years old when he turned pro. Give Tyrus a break. He's raw. He's got another year to get to Marion's rookie status. As a rookie Marion averaged 10.2ppg, 6.5rpg, .8stls, 1blk on 47% shooting. Would Marion be as good as he is offensively if he didn't have Steve Nash setting him up? Tyrus already averages more blocks (1.1 in just 12 minutes) than Marion did his rookie year in 24.7minutes. It's obvious Marion is a better shooter and likely always will be but give Tyrus a few offseasons to determine if he will only be a more athletic/better hands version of Tyson.

Amare sucks. He's one of my least favorite players b/c he's so overhyped. If he didn't have Nash setting him up he wouldn't be half the player he is. He's not great defensively and all his points come from easy cuts to the basket or dunking over someone. Amare is better offensively but not defensively.

Tyrus will never be KG. KG can create his own shot at will and I don't think Tyrus will ever be that good. I think Tyrus can eventually average close to 20 points 12 rebounds and more blocks than KG. He can be like a more athletic Marcus Camby. In Camby's best year he averaged 12.8ppg, 11.9reb, 3.3 blks, & 1.4 steals. He did that while shooting only 46% and 71% from the line. I think Tyrus can do better than that with the amount of easy shots his athleticism gets him. Either way, I don't think 12 rpg will be leading the league anytime soon. Unless Dwight Howard gets hurt. Howard's only going to get better.

Posted by: ZoomSlowik Mar 31 2007, 08:54 PM

I like a lot of your points, but how is Tyrus any different than that? 7 or 8 of his 9 field goals today were dunks. At least Amare gets SOME of his points in the post, though obviously he's had some time in the league to work.

I'm curious how you (and others) think he's going to score 20 a night without being able to create his own shot. Look at the list of 20-point scorers this year and tell me how many can't create their own shot. There aren't any, unless you're convinced that Amare has no skills whatsoever. He's not going to be able to get 6 dunks per night, he'll need some serious work to develop some post moves or moves off the dribble to get points, or at least develop a jumper. You threw Camby out there as an example, but Marcus isn't exactly a stiff in his own right athletically. You need more than just athleticism to be an elite scorer.

Also, on the rebounding thing. He can obviously be a good rebounder, but 12 is a lot of boards to average, especially for a guy that's only 6'9" 215. If he were to average that he'd be among the league leaders. From 99-00 through last year there have only been 22 players that averaged 12 boards per game (min 50 games), which is slightly more than 3 per year, and those are by only 8 players. As of right now only 3 people are over that this season, and Howard is at 12.1. His athleticism obviously helps, but the guys that average that many are bigger AND are pretty athletic as well. I'll put it this way: even at his current rebound rate with 40 minutes per game he'd still be averaging just over 11. 10 is pretty realistic, 12 is probably pushing it a little.

I'm not saying that he sucks or that we shouldn't be excited about his potential, but I prefer to be a bit more realistic. He can be very good, but he's going to need exponential improvement to reach the levels of Hakeem or KG, those are the kind of numbers that are being thrown around in this thread. If he were to average around 20-12-3 for more than a season or two that would put him at a legendary level, those numbers aren't exactly common. I listed the guys that have done it in recent history earlier, they all are or will be hall of famers. I'm not ready to say Tyrus is that type of player in the making, I need to see a bit more.

Posted by: ZoomSlowik Mar 31 2007, 09:13 PM

It was brought up by someone else...

I wouldn't be surprised at all if he were a solid player in the fairly near future. I expect him to hit his stride sometime next year and become a Josh Smith type player, which would be a huge boost to this team. That's about as much as I'm expecting though until I see him keep developing though.

I'm personally not 100% sold yet that Tyrus will definitively be a more productive player than Aldridge. The latter has been pretty impressive of late as well. I personally don't feel like making conclusive statements about young players before their first year is even over. Tyrus looks more explosive, but that isn't always the be all and end all.

Posted by: eddog2 Apr 1 2007, 11:28 AM

Another Josh Smith? Sign me up. I love Josh Smith.

Anyway, Josh is an all around monster that is still trying to figure it out offensively. He blocks shots, he steals the ball, he dunks with the best of them. If TT can get to Josh Smith status in the next 2 years that would be awesome. Smith is averaging 15.8pp, 8.4 rpg, 3.2 apg, 1.4 spg, 2.9 blks. Those are great all around #'s.


Maybe 12 rebounds is unrealistic. But TT definately will average 10 at some point in his career.

Posted by: Chicago Bulls Franchise Apr 1 2007, 12:13 PM

Im curious to know why Tyrus can't get 6 dunk attempts per game???? It's obvious that nobody can contain him when he is literally jumping over players on alleyoop dunks or using his quickness to find the open area for a quick dunk attempt. He is getting points with his athletiscm now but as time goes on he will learn how to post up and handle the ball better which will allow him to create his own shot. He is only 20 and is having a huge impact on games this late in the season. BTW, last I checked a slam dunk is the highest % shot you can have so who cares if the majority of his points come from dunks?

Posted by: ZoomSlowik Apr 1 2007, 05:07 PM

NOBODY consistently gets that many dunks per game, even Amare or Shaq (well, maybe Shaq in his prime, he was a force of nature). Not every defense is going to leave a guy open enough to do that with regularity. Eventually teams start making sure they put a body on him and make him work to get his points. Just about everybody in the league can dunk, if it were that easy guys like Big Ben and Chandler would be scoring a lot more. Right now Tyrus gets by with it, which is fine since teams are more worried about covering their perimeter players for now. That won't always be the case.



Agreed, obviously nothing wrong with Smith, and that'd be huge for this team. That is highly possible too, they were fairly similar prospects.

Posted by: eddog2 Apr 2 2007, 09:53 PM

Either way, if he can become enough of a force that defenses have to structure their scheme to contain him that will make the Bulls a lethal offensive team. Stop him and BG and Deng will light up Chicago from the perimeter.

Posted by: soxfan3530 Apr 3 2007, 11:11 AM

Tyrus is good. He will be even better. Short and sweet

Posted by: TeaLeafReaderII Apr 4 2007, 03:20 PM

Lamarcus has a bum ticker. see espn for details.

Posted by: Balta1701-B Apr 4 2007, 03:53 PM

http://www.talkbulls.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=1663&pid=24999&st=0&#

Posted by: truthandbasketball Apr 4 2007, 03:55 PM

Funny how Schenscher AKA Carrot Top was brought in the replace LaMarcus, more Bulls-Blazers connections. Best of luck to him though, I always liked his hustle. Luuuuuuuuuke!!!!!

PORTLAND, Ore. -- Portland Trail Blazers rookie LaMarcus Aldridge is out indefinitely after experiencing dizziness and a rapid heartbeat.

Aldridge played seven minutes in Saturday's loss to the Los Angeles Clippers before he was taken to the hospital. He was initially diagnosed with dehydration, but after he wore a heart monitor for 24 hours, the team asked for additional tests.

The nature of the tests was not revealed.

"We are going to run more tests and get a more accurate diagnosis so we can treat it," Blazers general manager Kevin Pritchard said. "That's the biggest thing right now. We're in a ruling-out process."

Travis Outlaw was expected to start in Aldridge's place Wednesday night for Portland's game against the Utah Jazz. Aldridge had taken over the starter's job when Joel Przybilla had season-ending knee surgery.

The Blazers signed center Luke Schenscher for the remainder of the 2006-07 season.

Portland signed the 7-foot-1 Schenscher to a 10-day contract from the Fort Worth Flyers of the NBDL on March 15, and re-signed him to another 10-day contract on March 25.

The Australian native has appeared in two games for the Trail Blazers, averaging 1.0 point and 1.5 rebounds in 3.5 minutes.

Copyright 2007 by The Associated Press

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2825672

Posted by: sport1016 Apr 5 2007, 01:22 AM

we sure know how to pick em

Posted by: madisonsmadhouse Apr 5 2007, 05:31 AM

Wow, hopefully Aldridge is OK.