Printable Version of Topic
Click here to view this topic in its original format
TalkBulls Forums _ Bulls Talk _ 2012 offseason FA/trade rumor thread
Posted by: Balta1701-B Jun 18 2012, 06:45 PM
http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/smith_120618.html Sam Smith saying the Celtics will make a run at Asik.
Posted by: Jake Jun 21 2012, 12:36 PM
It all depends on the money. I"m sure as hell not paying Asik 5 million bucks, but if it's in the range of 2 or 3 I'll probably do it. Pax said on the radio they intend to get to him as soon as they are allowed to sign him to try to pre-empt any other offer sheets. Apparently they think Asik's agent is an idiot.
Posted by: Balta1701-B Jun 21 2012, 02:10 PM
QUOTE (Jake @ Jun 21 2012, 02:36 PM) 
It all depends on the money. I"m sure as hell not paying Asik 5 million bucks, but if it's in the range of 2 or 3 I'll probably do it. Pax said on the radio they intend to get to him as soon as they are allowed to sign him to try to pre-empt any other offer sheets. Apparently they think Asik's agent is an idiot.
Asik will absolutely get the full MLE from someone given that he's "Tall".
Posted by: WHarris1 Jun 21 2012, 02:11 PM
Here is an article from Sam Amico at FoxSports talking about the possibility of the Bulls trading up: http://www.foxsportsohio.com/06/15/12/NBA-Rumors--Draft-News-Day-8/landing.html?blockID=746758&feedID=3725
Also mentions a couple of potential free agent targets.
Posted by: Balta1701-B Jun 21 2012, 02:15 PM
QUOTE (WHarris1 @ Jun 21 2012, 04:11 PM)
Here is an article from Sam Amico at FoxSports talking about the possibility of the Bulls trading up: http://www.foxsportsohio.com/06/15/12/NBA-Rumors--Draft-News-Day-8/landing.html?blockID=746758&feedID=3725
Also mentions a couple of potential free agent targets.
Also mentions a couple of potential free agent targets.
It'll be near impossible for the Bulls to do all 3 of these:
Keep Asik
Avoid the Luxury Tax
Sign anyone for any fraction of the MLE
Unless they can move one of their big contracts or they let someone like CJ or Korver with an option walk.
Posted by: WHarris1 Jun 21 2012, 02:17 PM
QUOTE (Balta1701-B @ Jun 21 2012, 03:15 PM)
It'll be near impossible for the Bulls to do all 3 of these:
Keep Asik
Avoid the Luxury Tax
Sign anyone for any fraction of the MLE
Unless they can move one of their big contracts or they let someone like CJ or Korver with an option walk.
Keep Asik
Avoid the Luxury Tax
Sign anyone for any fraction of the MLE
Unless they can move one of their big contracts or they let someone like CJ or Korver with an option walk.
Right. The choice they face is either, move Deng, get rid of pretty much the entire bench, or pay a substantial lux tax.
Posted by: Jake Jun 21 2012, 02:29 PM
I don't mind saying goodbye to CJ or Brewer or Asik, and even Korver if need be. I stated these in the order that I'm willing to let them go.
We'll have to keep in mind which bench players we let go when we draft, however. Dropping CJ puts the pressure on to get a PG, Brewer to get an SG, Asik a C.
I'd prefer we drop CJ and see if we can get an Andre Miller type as a FA
Posted by: madisonsmadhouse Jun 21 2012, 02:43 PM
There is no way the Bulls let Asik leave.
Posted by: Jake Jun 21 2012, 03:19 PM
I think he is probably overvalued, but not that easy to replace either.
Posted by: 2nd_city_saint787 Jun 21 2012, 06:26 PM
QUOTE (Jake @ Jun 21 2012, 04:19 PM)
I think he is probably overvalued, but not that easy to replace either.
This...well the first part anyway. He'll never develop into more than a good defensive player. With Thibs as the head coach I think they can grab most any young big and turn them into Omer Asik. It's not like Omers a high motor, athletic 7 foot (like Noah) so I think he's def replaceable.
Posted by: Quinarvy Jun 21 2012, 07:32 PM
From other boards, the Bulls apparently really want to move up to nab Beal or Barnes.
The problem is, if they get Beal, there's a big whole at SF.
Posted by: 2nd_city_saint787 Jun 21 2012, 09:01 PM
QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Jun 21 2012, 08:32 PM)
From other boards, the Bulls apparently really want to move up to nab Beal or Barnes.
The problem is, if they get Beal, there's a big whole at SF.
The problem is, if they get Beal, there's a big whole at SF.
It'd be Ronnie Brewer/Kyle Korver for a year and then hope Butler can step up for the future.
If they decide to amnesty Boozer next year and CJ/KK/RB are all gone they can sign a SF...Could you imagine Josh Smith, Taj Gibson, and Joakim Noah in the same starting lineup???
Posted by: Balta1701-B Jun 22 2012, 06:42 AM
QUOTE (2nd_city_saint787 @ Jun 21 2012, 11:01 PM)
It'd be Ronnie Brewer/Kyle Korver for a year and then hope Butler can step up for the future.
If they decide to amnesty Boozer next year and CJ/KK/RB are all gone they can sign a SF...Could you imagine Josh Smith, Taj Gibson, and Joakim Noah in the same starting lineup???
If they decide to amnesty Boozer next year and CJ/KK/RB are all gone they can sign a SF...Could you imagine Josh Smith, Taj Gibson, and Joakim Noah in the same starting lineup???
Especially if Rose is going to be out for most of the year, there's no reason why you can't give the time to Butler starting the year off if you move Deng.
Oftentimes, the single most important thing you can give a developing kid is playing time. They have to make mistakes to learn from them, and that just doesn't happen in practice.
Posted by: Jake Jun 22 2012, 08:13 AM
QUOTE (Balta1701-B @ Jun 22 2012, 07:42 AM)
Especially if Rose is going to be out for most of the year, there's no reason why you can't give the time to Butler starting the year off if you move Deng.
Oftentimes, the single most important thing you can give a developing kid is playing time. They have to make mistakes to learn from them, and that just doesn't happen in practice.
Oftentimes, the single most important thing you can give a developing kid is playing time. They have to make mistakes to learn from them, and that just doesn't happen in practice.
The talent evaluators at be will have to decide whether Jimmy's talent is worth those growing pains. I honestly haven't seen nearly enough of him to know, but I'd imagine the coaching staff has a pretty good idea. One thing I would say that encouraged me is that Jimmy showed poise on the court, never seemed to let it show that he was overwhelmed (or perhaps he just wasn't).
Posted by: Balta1701-B Jun 22 2012, 08:16 AM
QUOTE (Jake @ Jun 22 2012, 10:13 AM)
The talent evaluators at be will have to decide whether Jimmy's talent is worth those growing pains. I honestly haven't seen nearly enough of him to know, but I'd imagine the coaching staff has a pretty good idea. One thing I would say that encouraged me is that Jimmy showed poise on the court, never seemed to let it show that he was overwhelmed (or perhaps he just wasn't).
Even if they don't have a lot of confidence in him...what's the real risk? This is, as far as I'm concerned, a busted season. Even if they stand pat, the team gets more expensive, older, and may darn well miss the playoffs with Deng missing 1/3+ of the season and Rose maybe the whole thing.
This is a great year to play the kids, and even if you don't like where one is now, maybe there's a lightbulb that goes on with playing time.
Posted by: Jake Jun 22 2012, 08:29 AM
QUOTE (Balta1701-B @ Jun 22 2012, 09:16 AM)
Even if they don't have a lot of confidence in him...what's the real risk? This is, as far as I'm concerned, a busted season. Even if they stand pat, the team gets more expensive, older, and may darn well miss the playoffs with Deng missing 1/3+ of the season and Rose maybe the whole thing.
This is a great year to play the kids, and even if you don't like where one is now, maybe there's a lightbulb that goes on with playing time.
This is a great year to play the kids, and even if you don't like where one is now, maybe there's a lightbulb that goes on with playing time.
What I mean is that if they think little of Butler's talent, it would make more sense to go ahead and acquire someone that would better flourish with that playing time. They may want to bring someone else in even if they do like Jimmy, just for depth/hedging their bets if Jimmy doesn't work out. If they could turn Jimmy into a nice player, that'd be a nice late 1st round draft pick and the second one of its kind (Taj Gibson comes to mind) in recent years. That's quite a leap though.
Posted by: Balta1701-B Jun 22 2012, 09:05 AM
QUOTE (Jake @ Jun 22 2012, 10:29 AM)
What I mean is that if they think little of Butler's talent, it would make more sense to go ahead and acquire someone that would better flourish with that playing time. They may want to bring someone else in even if they do like Jimmy, just for depth/hedging their bets if Jimmy doesn't work out. If they could turn Jimmy into a nice player, that'd be a nice late 1st round draft pick and the second one of its kind (Taj Gibson comes to mind) in recent years. That's quite a leap though.
The difference with Butler is...he's an asset the Bulls already have. Bringing in someone with more talent takes either a draft pick or talent in a trade. If you can maximize Butler's value by working him hard this season when Rose and Deng are out, then that's a real useful accomplishment, even if he's just a "solid rotation piece" and not a star or anything.
Posted by: 2nd_city_saint787 Jun 22 2012, 12:57 PM
Another rumor being floated out there is Deng for Richard Jefferson or Biedrins and the #7.
Looking at Biedrins, what happened to him after the 08-09 season?? He went from being an 11/11 guy, getting to the free throw line over 200 times, to a guy whos been a non factor who never got the line more than 31 times in a season.
Richard Jefferson has been fantastic from beyond the arc the last few years, shooting above 40% the last 3 years. With Deng being traded he'd be a good replacement for a few years.
Picking at 7 takes you out of the running for Barnes and Beal but guys like J. Lamb, Ross, Rivers, and Waiters will all more than likely be there.
Posted by: ZoomSlowik Jun 22 2012, 01:29 PM
QUOTE (2nd_city_saint787 @ Jun 22 2012, 01:57 PM)
Another rumor being floated out there is Deng for Richard Jefferson or Biedrins and the #7.
Looking at Biedrins, what happened to him after the 08-09 season?? He went from being an 11/11 guy, getting to the free throw line over 200 times, to a guy whos been a non factor who never got the line more than 31 times in a season.
Richard Jefferson has been fantastic from beyond the arc the last few years, shooting above 40% the last 3 years. With Deng being traded he'd be a good replacement for a few years.
Picking at 7 takes you out of the running for Barnes and Beal but guys like J. Lamb, Ross, Rivers, and Waiters will all more than likely be there.
Looking at Biedrins, what happened to him after the 08-09 season?? He went from being an 11/11 guy, getting to the free throw line over 200 times, to a guy whos been a non factor who never got the line more than 31 times in a season.
Richard Jefferson has been fantastic from beyond the arc the last few years, shooting above 40% the last 3 years. With Deng being traded he'd be a good replacement for a few years.
Picking at 7 takes you out of the running for Barnes and Beal but guys like J. Lamb, Ross, Rivers, and Waiters will all more than likely be there.
He was never really any good. He was athletic, that was about it. He has basically no skills, fouls a ton on defense and now he's terrified of getting fouled because he's a comically bad FT shooter. A lot of guys put up stats on those Warriors teams given their pace of play. It also helps that he was their only real interior player.
Posted by: 2nd_city_saint787 Jun 22 2012, 02:38 PM
What do you think about Jefferson for a few years? I like the deal, Jeffersons not the scorer Deng is anymore but the if they grab the right SG in the draft whomever they pick can make up for that.
Next year I'd let Korver and Brewer go and use Butler as the backup SF. Really I'd do that regardless of what happens, as mentioned before the Bulls need to give Butler more minutes to see what he's going to be.
When healthy:
Rose/Hinrich (or whatever MLE PG they grab)
Rip/Rookie
Jefferson/Butler
Boozer/Taj
Noah/Asik
Hinrich, Rip, and Jefferson are 3 good vets for the rookie and Butler to learn from
Posted by: ZoomSlowik Jun 23 2012, 08:27 PM
Jefferson is alright. He's certainly developed into a good 3-point shooter and still has flashes of athleticism. Not a bad defender either. He's not exactly a bargain financially though, especially given he's a role player now and is fairly old now.
It'd depend on what kind of rookie they got, it'd definitely have to be someone with good potential.
Posted by: Jake Jun 23 2012, 10:02 PM
Are we saying we bring in Jefferson in lieu of Deng because we improve our draft position? If so, I might be okay with that. A good draft with two 1st round picks could really heal some of these wounds.
Posted by: 2nd_city_saint787 Jun 24 2012, 02:35 AM
I think a veteran "role player" like Jefferson would be perfect going forward. Especially next year, I wanna see what the Bulls have in Jimmy Butler, he has impressed me when he's on the court. A guy like RJ won't log as many minutes as Deng so it would mean more time for Butler.
So basically the trade means:
-More Jimmy Butler, which I like
-We add our Shane Battier, which worked for the champs.
-We potentially add a young starting SG. Bulls have drafted pretty good the last few years, I trust they pick the right guy between Ross, Rivers, and Lamb. I think they're all better than what they've thrown out there at SG the last 2 years
In said situation I think Terrance Ross would be the best pick because he's capable of paying the 2 and the 3. When the time comes and the Bulls have the money to offer a big contract they can target a SF OR a SG with Ross being able to slide to the other position.
It'd be pretty sweet if Jefferson doesn't pick up his player option next year for whatever reason and they amnesty Booze. This sets you up for a run at Harden, Martin, Ellis, Evans (after he has a monster year I'm predicting now), or Josh Smith. A Rose-Harden-Ross-Taj-Noah lineup is pretty sick, if Ross turns out to be good, or hell Butler turns out to be good then that is no doubt a championship caliber team. Once Mirotic comes over a bench of Mirotic, Butler, Asik, #29 this year (D.Lamb? trade up for Wroten? trade down for Taylor/Machado/Intl. prospect), next years draft pick/MLE is a pretty good looking bench as well.
Posted by: Balta1701-B Jun 24 2012, 10:27 AM
QUOTE (2nd_city_saint787 @ Jun 24 2012, 04:35 AM)
-We add our Shane Battier, which worked for the champs.
Don't mistake wind up having won the title with having made moves that should be followed. They won that title because of the big players, not because of the role players.
Posted by: Jake Jun 24 2012, 10:55 AM
I'm also uncertain what Jefferson has in common with Shane Battier. I was always a big fan of Shane's though.
It's hard for me to take a lineup that only has 2 starters in common with the one that went to the ECF and includes two players that have never started in the NBA before and know that it is a championship squad. I like Harden but I'm uncertain of our ability to acquire him and I don't think I want to give him a max contract, which he may get from a struggling team trying to make its mark.
A trade that gets us a high draft pick this year and a subsequent good 2 draft picks in the first round could certainly alter the trajectory of this franchise, but that's true for every club.
Posted by: Quinarvy Jun 24 2012, 11:04 AM
Everyone does realize Jefferon is pretty damn terrible, right?
From the internet rumor mill the Bulls want cap space, a serviceable player, and a pick for Deng +.
Posted by: Jake Jun 24 2012, 11:07 AM
QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Jun 24 2012, 12:04 PM)
Everyone does realize Jefferon is pretty damn terrible, right?
From the internet rumor mill the Bulls want cap space, a serviceable player, and a pick for Deng +.
From the internet rumor mill the Bulls want cap space, a serviceable player, and a pick for Deng +.
The more I think about it, the more I think we'll do a deal with Sacramento.
From their end though, I have to wonder how eager a struggling team like that is to give up a high draft pick. I suppose they may not think highly of the draft and just want to bring in an All-Star SF since Luol is as known an entity as they come.
Posted by: 2nd_city_saint787 Jun 24 2012, 11:42 AM
Richard Jefferson would be a Keith Boogans type starter only a better shooter. He'll give you good D and hit a few big 3s. His 3 point percentage has been over 40% the last 3 years...He sounds like the kind of player everyone here wants, obviously not the ideal one, but he's a guy they can kick it out to when teams collapse on Derrick.
The Battier comparison was kinda out of left field, I was a lil tipsy last night. Basically I guess my thinking was hes a veteran SF role player who can hit a big 3, but looking at Shanes stats he hasn't exactly been a great 3 point shooter.
RJ would be serviceable for a year or 2 if he keeps up the high percentage from beyond the arc, and if the 7 pick turns out to be good then it was a good trade.
Posted by: Quinarvy Jun 24 2012, 12:07 PM
QUOTE (2nd_city_saint787 @ Jun 24 2012, 12:42 PM)
Richard Jefferson would be a Keith Boogans type starter only a better shooter. He'll give you good D and hit a few big 3s. His 3 point percentage has been over 40% the last 3 years...He sounds like the kind of player everyone here wants, obviously not the ideal one, but he's a guy they can kick it out to when teams collapse on Derrick.
The Battier comparison was kinda out of left field, I was a lil tipsy last night. Basically I guess my thinking was hes a veteran SF role player who can hit a big 3, but looking at Shanes stats he hasn't exactly been a great 3 point shooter.
RJ would be serviceable for a year or 2 if he keeps up the high percentage from beyond the arc, and if the 7 pick turns out to be good then it was a good trade.
The Battier comparison was kinda out of left field, I was a lil tipsy last night. Basically I guess my thinking was hes a veteran SF role player who can hit a big 3, but looking at Shanes stats he hasn't exactly been a great 3 point shooter.
RJ would be serviceable for a year or 2 if he keeps up the high percentage from beyond the arc, and if the 7 pick turns out to be good then it was a good trade.
Jefferon is not a good defender.
And Bogans sucks.
Most Bulls fans want guys who can create their own shot to take pressure off of Rose.
I'll take the 5 + Garcia for Deng because than we also get the MLE back and Garcia would be gone next year. Jefferson will cost us over $20M total, while Garcia will be around $6M. Then we also get Barnes. We won't get Barnes in a deal with GS.
Posted by: Balta1701-B Jun 24 2012, 12:51 PM
QUOTE (Jake @ Jun 24 2012, 01:07 PM)
The more I think about it, the more I think we'll do a deal with Sacramento.
From their end though, I have to wonder how eager a struggling team like that is to give up a high draft pick. I suppose they may not think highly of the draft and just want to bring in an All-Star SF since Luol is as known an entity as they come.
From their end though, I have to wonder how eager a struggling team like that is to give up a high draft pick. I suppose they may not think highly of the draft and just want to bring in an All-Star SF since Luol is as known an entity as they come.
Sacto would make sense but the guy they might be willing to part with...Evans...I'm not sure if the Bulls would be confident enough to want him.
Posted by: Jake Jun 24 2012, 01:14 PM
QUOTE (Balta1701-B @ Jun 24 2012, 01:51 PM)
Sacto would make sense but the guy they might be willing to part with...Evans...I'm not sure if the Bulls would be confident enough to want him.
I'm thinking more along the lines of getting a Garcia back just so we don't have to part with anything else.
Posted by: 2nd_city_saint787 Jun 24 2012, 01:18 PM
QUOTE (Balta1701-B @ Jun 24 2012, 12:51 PM)
Sacto would make sense but the guy they might be willing to part with...Evans...I'm not sure if the Bulls would be confident enough to want him.
He'd certainly make me happy lol.
He can play the point while Derricks out then move to SG or even SF once Rose comes back.
If he doesn't work out let him go next year, amnesty booze and pick up one of the good FA SGs.
Of course they cant amnesty boozer if Taj goes in the trade so that changes things...If you can pull the deal off without Taj then you do it all day.
Posted by: Jake Jun 24 2012, 01:22 PM
QUOTE (2nd_city_saint787 @ Jun 24 2012, 02:18 PM)
He'd certainly make me happy lol.
He can play the point while Derricks out then move to SG or even SF once Rose comes back.
If he doesn't work out let him go next year, amnesty booze and pick up one of the good FA SGs.
He can play the point while Derricks out then move to SG or even SF once Rose comes back.
If he doesn't work out let him go next year, amnesty booze and pick up one of the good FA SGs.
I don't want to trade the Charlotte pick to get him.
Posted by: 2nd_city_saint787 Jun 24 2012, 02:26 PM
QUOTE (Jake @ Jun 24 2012, 01:22 PM)
I don't want to trade the Charlotte pick to get him.
Understandable, but what are the odds that pick is gonna be better than Tyreke Evans who should be in his prime by the time we get that pick.
I'd be happy with either deal. The Evans deal makes us better this coming up year, the Garcia deal makes better the following year as I'm sure one of Harden, Ellis, or Martin will become FA.
If Evans is the guy can we resign him without the amnesty of Boozer?? Meaning is a Rose-Evans-Barnes-Boozer-Noah possible while still holding onto Taj, Omer, Butler, #29, and a vet on the bench??
We still don't know what kind of starter Taj will be and I think Boozer will still be a better offensive option.
Wait till Mirotic comes over to give Boozer the boot.
Posted by: Balta1701-B Jun 24 2012, 02:37 PM
QUOTE (2nd_city_saint787 @ Jun 24 2012, 04:26 PM)
Understandable, but what are the odds that pick is gonna be better than Tyreke Evans who should be in his prime by the time we get that pick.
I'd be happy with either deal. The Evans deal makes us better this coming up year, the Garcia deal makes better the following year as I'm sure one of Harden, Ellis, or Martin will become FA.
If Evans is the guy can we resign him without the amnesty of Boozer?? Meaning is a Rose-Evans-Barnes-Boozer-Noah possible while still holding onto Taj, Omer, Butler, #29, and a vet on the bench??
We still don't know what kind of starter Taj will be and I think Boozer will still be a better offensive option.
Wait till Mirotic comes over to give Boozer the boot.
I'd be happy with either deal. The Evans deal makes us better this coming up year, the Garcia deal makes better the following year as I'm sure one of Harden, Ellis, or Martin will become FA.
If Evans is the guy can we resign him without the amnesty of Boozer?? Meaning is a Rose-Evans-Barnes-Boozer-Noah possible while still holding onto Taj, Omer, Butler, #29, and a vet on the bench??
We still don't know what kind of starter Taj will be and I think Boozer will still be a better offensive option.
Wait till Mirotic comes over to give Boozer the boot.
You can always resign your own guys...the question is whether you want to pay the luxury tax to do it.
Posted by: Balta1701-B Jun 24 2012, 02:38 PM
QUOTE
The Bulls want to give Omer Asik and Taj Gibson new deals, so they’re exploring ways to trade Luol Deng and/or Joakim Noah to teams that can send them a trade exception and a No. 1 pick.
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/coaching-a-dynasty-a-lakers-pat-riley-president-miami-heat-article-1.1101219?pgno=1
Posted by: 2nd_city_saint787 Jun 24 2012, 02:45 PM
QUOTE (Balta1701-B @ Jun 24 2012, 02:37 PM)
You can always resign your own guys...the question is whether you want to pay the luxury tax to do it.
I don't know what Reinsdorf is working with financially but I would do it if he has the money to.
QUOTE (Balta1701-B @ Jun 24 2012, 02:38 PM)
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/coaching-a-dynasty-a-lakers-pat-riley-president-miami-heat-article-1.1101219?pgno=1
trade exception=expiring contract?
That sounds like Deng for Garcia and #5.
Posted by: Jake Jun 24 2012, 02:47 PM
I'm holding on to that draft pick over Tyreke Evans. I don't think he fits that well with this club based on previous discussion. He would be a nice stop gap for this season, but I don't know that you're going to get much value from him once the high volume shooter Derrick returns. Maybe.
Posted by: Balta1701-B Jun 24 2012, 03:00 PM
QUOTE (2nd_city_saint787 @ Jun 24 2012, 04:45 PM)
I don't know what Reinsdorf is working with financially but I would do it if he has the money to.
JR absolutely havs the money to go over the luxury tax line, but if you go over that line, it costs you like $10 million+ per season, so it's a major profitability hit.
Posted by: 2nd_city_saint787 Jun 24 2012, 03:19 PM
QUOTE (Balta1701-B @ Jun 24 2012, 03:00 PM)
JR absolutely havs the money to go over the luxury tax line, but if you go over that line, it costs you like $10 million+ per season, so it's a major profitability hit.
Oh wow, didn't know it was going to be that big of a hit...
I think Evans turns into a real good player, kids only 22 years old and he's still working with the "shot doc" all offseason apparently...
Here's a link to this shot doc guy There's a video of him working with Evans on the front page.
http://keithshotdocveney.com/index.php/training-with-shot-doc/pro-training
He's worked with Dirk, Peirce, Caron Butler, and Ben Gordon amung others..
Posted by: Balta1701-B Jun 24 2012, 03:47 PM
QUOTE (2nd_city_saint787 @ Jun 24 2012, 05:19 PM)
Oh wow, didn't know it was going to be that big of a hit...
If you go over the Luxury tax line, the first season you pay something like $1.5 for every dollar over the line, then it gets harsher with time, becomes $2 the next year, somemthing like that.
So if you go over the luxury tax line by $2 million you take a $1-2 million hit. If you go over by $5 million, pretty quickly it's a $5 million hit. The Heat are over the tax line by like $7 million right now.
The other part though...if you're over the tax line, you also lose revenue from the other teams over the tax. If you're over the tax line, you pay money out, you do not receive money, and so the penalty for going $1 over the luxury tax line is close to $4 million.
Posted by: Balta1701-B Jun 24 2012, 03:53 PM
http://espn.go.com/chicago/nba/story/_/id/8090830/chicago-bulls-luol-deng-says-surprised-trade
QUOTE
"I believe there is always to some extent truth behind rumors," Deng said. "But as an athlete, if you get caught up in them, you are really wasting your time because it's not something you can control.
"If it's not true, a GM could always come out and say it's not true. But if a GM doesn't come out and say it, there are probably talks. And there should be. If I was a GM I would be shopping players around, too. I've got to show that I'm doing something.
"A lot of GMs don't just sit there, they're trying their options. Me, I always say there are two things when trades happen -- if I was to be let go by a team and nobody picks me up, that's probably the worst thing. But whenever you hear your name in a trade, that means there is somebody at the other end who wants you.
"As much as I want to stay on the team -- I love Chicago, I love the Bulls -- at the same time, I know the business part of it. Sooner or later, all the rumors are going to come up."
The apparent unease between the team and Deng stems from the end of the Bulls' season when, following their first-round playoff exit to the Philadelphia 76ers, Deng insisted he would not alter his long-held plans to represent Britain, the country that granted his family political asylum from the Sudan, in the Olympics.
Deng, who was raised from the age of 10 in London, had been carrying a wrist ligament injury for much of the season, yet still led the league in minutes with 39.4 per game.
However, Bulls management told Deng it would have preferred him to miss the Olympics -- the first in which Britain will enter a basketball team since 1948 -- in order to undergo surgery that would ensure his health for the start of the 2012-13 NBA season.
In a tense exit interview before Deng left Chicago, he told Bulls management that he would not entertain the prospect of missing out on the Games and presented an argument that he might not, in any case, require surgery before the start of the season.
Deng, though, does not believe the Bulls have acted in response to his stance.
"I don't think so," he said. "Me and (coach Tom Thibodeau) have a very close relationship. I spoke to (GM) Gar (Forman), I spoke to (VP of basketball operations John) Paxson, and it's one of those things you don't want to bring up.
"He's doing his job. As much as I'm playing basketball, working out, I'm doing my job. You just let it be. If it's going on, it's going on. At the end of the day there are no hard feelings and I'm not a 21-year-old kid who will get upset by it. I understand the game.
"I wouldn't want me to play (in the Olympics) either. Pax is an athlete and, as an athlete who used to play, Pax understands me wanting to play. But as a GM that's his job to try and get the team healthy and get the team ready for next year. I understand both sides to it.
"But it comes down to an injury that happened at the wrong time. I just try to let people know I'm going to be OK."
"If it's not true, a GM could always come out and say it's not true. But if a GM doesn't come out and say it, there are probably talks. And there should be. If I was a GM I would be shopping players around, too. I've got to show that I'm doing something.
"A lot of GMs don't just sit there, they're trying their options. Me, I always say there are two things when trades happen -- if I was to be let go by a team and nobody picks me up, that's probably the worst thing. But whenever you hear your name in a trade, that means there is somebody at the other end who wants you.
"As much as I want to stay on the team -- I love Chicago, I love the Bulls -- at the same time, I know the business part of it. Sooner or later, all the rumors are going to come up."
The apparent unease between the team and Deng stems from the end of the Bulls' season when, following their first-round playoff exit to the Philadelphia 76ers, Deng insisted he would not alter his long-held plans to represent Britain, the country that granted his family political asylum from the Sudan, in the Olympics.
Deng, who was raised from the age of 10 in London, had been carrying a wrist ligament injury for much of the season, yet still led the league in minutes with 39.4 per game.
However, Bulls management told Deng it would have preferred him to miss the Olympics -- the first in which Britain will enter a basketball team since 1948 -- in order to undergo surgery that would ensure his health for the start of the 2012-13 NBA season.
In a tense exit interview before Deng left Chicago, he told Bulls management that he would not entertain the prospect of missing out on the Games and presented an argument that he might not, in any case, require surgery before the start of the season.
Deng, though, does not believe the Bulls have acted in response to his stance.
"I don't think so," he said. "Me and (coach Tom Thibodeau) have a very close relationship. I spoke to (GM) Gar (Forman), I spoke to (VP of basketball operations John) Paxson, and it's one of those things you don't want to bring up.
"He's doing his job. As much as I'm playing basketball, working out, I'm doing my job. You just let it be. If it's going on, it's going on. At the end of the day there are no hard feelings and I'm not a 21-year-old kid who will get upset by it. I understand the game.
"I wouldn't want me to play (in the Olympics) either. Pax is an athlete and, as an athlete who used to play, Pax understands me wanting to play. But as a GM that's his job to try and get the team healthy and get the team ready for next year. I understand both sides to it.
"But it comes down to an injury that happened at the wrong time. I just try to let people know I'm going to be OK."
Posted by: Jake Jun 24 2012, 04:27 PM
Sounds like the same response Matt Thornton gave. No sour grapes, but it is what it is. Luol is a good guy.
Posted by: ZoomSlowik Jun 24 2012, 05:17 PM
QUOTE (Balta1701-B @ Jun 24 2012, 04:47 PM)
If you go over the Luxury tax line, the first season you pay something like $1.5 for every dollar over the line, then it gets harsher with time, becomes $2 the next year, somemthing like that.
So if you go over the luxury tax line by $2 million you take a $1-2 million hit. If you go over by $5 million, pretty quickly it's a $5 million hit. The Heat are over the tax line by like $7 million right now.
The other part though...if you're over the tax line, you also lose revenue from the other teams over the tax. If you're over the tax line, you pay money out, you do not receive money, and so the penalty for going $1 over the luxury tax line is close to $4 million.
So if you go over the luxury tax line by $2 million you take a $1-2 million hit. If you go over by $5 million, pretty quickly it's a $5 million hit. The Heat are over the tax line by like $7 million right now.
The other part though...if you're over the tax line, you also lose revenue from the other teams over the tax. If you're over the tax line, you pay money out, you do not receive money, and so the penalty for going $1 over the luxury tax line is close to $4 million.
That's not exactly how it works. Here's a link to the full table of the rates:
http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q21
Two things to note:
1) The increased rates don't take effect until 2013/2014.
2) The real killer is if you're a repeat offender. However, that can't hurt you until 2014/2015 at the earliest, and that's only if you were a tax-payer the first 3 years of the CBA (unless hoopshype is lieing to me, the Bulls were just under it this year).
Your last part doesn't really make any sense since teams like the Bulls, Knicks and Lakers wouldn't be terribly likely to get luxury tax money anyways.
Posted by: Balta1701-B Jun 24 2012, 05:20 PM
QUOTE (ZoomSlowik @ Jun 24 2012, 07:17 PM)
That's not exactly how it works. Here's a link to the full table of the rates:
http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q21
Two things to note:
1) The increased rates don't take effect until 2013/2014.
2) The real killer is if you're a repeat offender. However, that can't hurt you until 2014/2015 at the earliest, and that's only if you were a tax-payer the first 3 years of the CBA (unless hoopshype is lieing to me, the Bulls were just under it this year).
Your last part doesn't really make any sense since teams like the Bulls, Knicks and Lakers wouldn't be terribly likely to get luxury tax money anyways.
http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q21
Two things to note:
1) The increased rates don't take effect until 2013/2014.
2) The real killer is if you're a repeat offender. However, that can't hurt you until 2014/2015 at the earliest, and that's only if you were a tax-payer the first 3 years of the CBA (unless hoopshype is lieing to me, the Bulls were just under it this year).
Your last part doesn't really make any sense since teams like the Bulls, Knicks and Lakers wouldn't be terribly likely to get luxury tax money anyways.
Here's the clause on redistribution from that link:
QUOTE
Up to 50% of the tax money may be given to non-taxpaying teams. Note that there is no requirement that any of the tax money be distributed to teams in this manner.
Any tax money not distributed to teams will be used for "league purposes." In other words, at least 50% of the tax revenue will be used for league purposes each season.
"League purposes" essentially means for any purpose the league decides, including distributing the money back to teams. The league decided that in 2011-12, 100% of the tax revenue will be used as a funding source for the league's revenue sharing program (see question number 24). Starting in 2012-13, 50% of the tax revenue will be used as a funding source for the revenue sharing program, and the remaining 50% will be distributed to non-taxpaying teams in equal shares.
To understand the consequence of crossing the tax line, consider a team just below the tax line that suffers injuries and needs to sign a replacement player. This team would pay the player's salary, pay tax on the amount by which they are now above the tax line, and forfeit any tax distribution they otherwise may have received.
The Bulls haven't been over the Tax line since Jordan, so the Bulls have been a "non-taxpaying team" since then. The Bulls get about $3-$4 million/year in payout from the luxury tax paying teams. If the Bulls cross that line, they lose that money.
Any tax money not distributed to teams will be used for "league purposes." In other words, at least 50% of the tax revenue will be used for league purposes each season.
"League purposes" essentially means for any purpose the league decides, including distributing the money back to teams. The league decided that in 2011-12, 100% of the tax revenue will be used as a funding source for the league's revenue sharing program (see question number 24). Starting in 2012-13, 50% of the tax revenue will be used as a funding source for the revenue sharing program, and the remaining 50% will be distributed to non-taxpaying teams in equal shares.
To understand the consequence of crossing the tax line, consider a team just below the tax line that suffers injuries and needs to sign a replacement player. This team would pay the player's salary, pay tax on the amount by which they are now above the tax line, and forfeit any tax distribution they otherwise may have received.
Posted by: ZoomSlowik Jun 24 2012, 05:40 PM
QUOTE (Balta1701-B @ Jun 24 2012, 06:20 PM)
Here's the clause on redistribution from that link:
The Bulls haven't been over the Tax line since Jordan, so the Bulls have been a "non-taxpaying team" since then. The Bulls get about $3-$4 million/year in payout from the luxury tax paying teams. If the Bulls cross that line, they lose that money.
The Bulls haven't been over the Tax line since Jordan, so the Bulls have been a "non-taxpaying team" since then. The Bulls get about $3-$4 million/year in payout from the luxury tax paying teams. If the Bulls cross that line, they lose that money.
You needed to go down a little further. I'll quote the important ones:
QUOTE
•Teams in markets with more than 2.5 million TV households cannot receive a revenue sharing payment. Teams in markets with 2 million to 2.5 million TV households receive a percentage of a full payment (for example, a team with 2.25 million TV households receives a 50% payment). A team with fewer than 2 million TV households receives a full payment.
•If a team is profitable without revenue sharing, it receives a smaller or zero payment. Any payments from revenue sharing that would lead a team to have a profit over $10 million are eliminated.
•If a team is profitable without revenue sharing, it receives a smaller or zero payment. Any payments from revenue sharing that would lead a team to have a profit over $10 million are eliminated.
Posted by: Jake Jun 24 2012, 06:16 PM
I've heard mention of Deng trades to Golden State and another team (don't recall off the top of my head)...what players would be involved there?
Posted by: 2nd_city_saint787 Jun 24 2012, 09:11 PM
Without knowing the other team itd obviously be impossible to tell...As I posted before the Deng to GSW trade I saw would be us getting back Jefferson or Biedrins and the 7...maybe they take CJ too and give us their late 2nd rounder as well, theres not any PGs that are gonna be there at 29 that arent a reach
Posted by: Quinarvy Jun 24 2012, 10:06 PM
Let me revise my ridiculous trade early, to slightly less ridiculous.
With Deron eyeing Dallas, they might want to clear cap space.
Korver + Brewer (non-guaranteed contracts) + 2nd Rounder for Marion + 17
Deng for Garcia + 5
Draft Barnes and Ross
PG: Watson - FA - Rose
SG: Hamilton - Ross - Garcia
SF: Marion - Barnes - Butler
PF: Boozer - Taj
C : Noah - Asik
Then you can explore moving Rip and Marion if the Bulls aren't contending, if not, keep them for Roses return. Ross and Barnes watch and learn from Rip and Marion while Butler provides D. Garcia is there for occasional shooting/expiring.
Posted by: Jake Jun 25 2012, 08:28 AM
QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Jun 24 2012, 11:06 PM)
Let me revise my ridiculous trade early, to slightly less ridiculous.
With Deron eyeing Dallas, they might want to clear cap space.
Korver + Brewer (non-guaranteed contracts) + 2nd Rounder for Marion + 17
Deng for Garcia + 5
Draft Barnes and Ross
PG: Watson - FA - Rose
SG: Hamilton - Ross - Garcia
SF: Marion - Barnes - Butler
PF: Boozer - Taj
C : Noah - Asik
Then you can explore moving Rip and Marion if the Bulls aren't contending, if not, keep them for Roses return. Ross and Barnes watch and learn from Rip and Marion while Butler provides D. Garcia is there for occasional shooting/expiring.
With Deron eyeing Dallas, they might want to clear cap space.
Korver + Brewer (non-guaranteed contracts) + 2nd Rounder for Marion + 17
Deng for Garcia + 5
Draft Barnes and Ross
PG: Watson - FA - Rose
SG: Hamilton - Ross - Garcia
SF: Marion - Barnes - Butler
PF: Boozer - Taj
C : Noah - Asik
Then you can explore moving Rip and Marion if the Bulls aren't contending, if not, keep them for Roses return. Ross and Barnes watch and learn from Rip and Marion while Butler provides D. Garcia is there for occasional shooting/expiring.
Moved to the offseason rumor thread
I think both are plausible deals, which means they won't happen. lol. Does Marion have anything left in the tank?
Posted by: ZoomSlowik Jun 25 2012, 09:47 AM
QUOTE (Jake @ Jun 24 2012, 07:16 PM)
I've heard mention of Deng trades to Golden State and another team (don't recall off the top of my head)...what players would be involved there?
I guess there's a rumor on RealGM with Utah as the other team that goes like this...
Bulls send: Luol Deng, picks (says 29 and 2013 first), possibly another player (someone like Watson)
Bulls get: Devin Harris, Dorrell Wright, pick #7
Warriors send: Andris Biedrins, Dorrell Wright, pick #7, #30
Warriors get: Luol Deng
Jazz send: Devin Harris
Jazz get: Andris Biedrins, #29, #30, Bulls' 2013 first, other Bulls' player.
That one makes zero sense to me, mostly because of Utah. Why the fish would they want Biedrins? Jefferson and Millsap are light-years better than him and they also have cheaper options with upside in Favors and Kanter. Biedrins is probably no better than their #4 big man but he'd make $9 million a year. They need more guards, not more big men.
The only way it makes any sense is if they have a deal in place to get an impact guard for Jefferson or Millsap. Then they'd still have 3 bigs with production/potential (and Biedrins) and add several picks (albiet late ones). Even then, it seems odd that they'd take on a bad deal for a backup big for a couple of late firsts (the Bulls wouldn't tank nearly hard enough for that to be a good pick with two sure-fire starters coming back and another potential one with the pick).
Plus the Bulls get what is probably 3 of the 4 best assets in the deal, with the two players having expiring contracts (maybe keep Wright, probably not Harris). That's usually a bad sign for the viability of a deal.
Posted by: Jake Jun 25 2012, 11:35 AM
QUOTE (ZoomSlowik @ Jun 25 2012, 10:47 AM)
I guess there's a rumor on RealGM with Utah as the other team that goes like this...
Bulls send: Luol Deng, picks (says 29 and 2013 first), possibly another player (someone like Watson)
Bulls get: Devin Harris, Dorrell Wright, pick #7
Warriors send: Andris Biedrins, Dorrell Wright, pick #7, #30
Warriors get: Luol Deng
Jazz send: Devin Harris
Jazz get: Andris Biedrins, #29, #30, Bulls' 2013 first, other Bulls' player.
That one makes zero sense to me, mostly because of Utah. Why the fish would they want Biedrins? Jefferson and Millsap are light-years better than him and they also have cheaper options with upside in Favors and Kanter. Biedrins is probably no better than their #4 big man but he'd make $9 million a year. They need more guards, not more big men.
The only way it makes any sense is if they have a deal in place to get an impact guard for Jefferson or Millsap. Then they'd still have 3 bigs with production/potential (and Biedrins) and add several picks (albiet late ones). Even then, it seems odd that they'd take on a bad deal for a backup big for a couple of late firsts (the Bulls wouldn't tank nearly hard enough for that to be a good pick with two sure-fire starters coming back and another potential one with the pick).
Plus the Bulls get what is probably 3 of the 4 best assets in the deal, with the two players having expiring contracts (maybe keep Wright, probably not Harris). That's usually a bad sign for the viability of a deal.
Bulls send: Luol Deng, picks (says 29 and 2013 first), possibly another player (someone like Watson)
Bulls get: Devin Harris, Dorrell Wright, pick #7
Warriors send: Andris Biedrins, Dorrell Wright, pick #7, #30
Warriors get: Luol Deng
Jazz send: Devin Harris
Jazz get: Andris Biedrins, #29, #30, Bulls' 2013 first, other Bulls' player.
That one makes zero sense to me, mostly because of Utah. Why the fish would they want Biedrins? Jefferson and Millsap are light-years better than him and they also have cheaper options with upside in Favors and Kanter. Biedrins is probably no better than their #4 big man but he'd make $9 million a year. They need more guards, not more big men.
The only way it makes any sense is if they have a deal in place to get an impact guard for Jefferson or Millsap. Then they'd still have 3 bigs with production/potential (and Biedrins) and add several picks (albiet late ones). Even then, it seems odd that they'd take on a bad deal for a backup big for a couple of late firsts (the Bulls wouldn't tank nearly hard enough for that to be a good pick with two sure-fire starters coming back and another potential one with the pick).
Plus the Bulls get what is probably 3 of the 4 best assets in the deal, with the two players having expiring contracts (maybe keep Wright, probably not Harris). That's usually a bad sign for the viability of a deal.
I'm honestly not that happy with the return for two first round draft picks, Deng, plus perhaps another player. I don't know, I'd deal with it I suppose. I always thought Devin Harris was a nice player and would fill in really well for Derrick, but I honestly don't know much about Wright beyond the expiring contract.
Posted by: Quinarvy Jun 25 2012, 12:47 PM
QUOTE (Jake @ Jun 25 2012, 09:28 AM)
Moved to the offseason rumor thread
I think both are plausible deals, which means they won't happen. lol. Does Marion have anything left in the tank?
I think both are plausible deals, which means they won't happen. lol. Does Marion have anything left in the tank?
10-7-2 with ORtg of 100 and DRtg of 102.
Posted by: Jake Jun 25 2012, 12:54 PM
Adrian WojnarowskiWojYahooNBA 3 hrs
The Bulls have privately assured Luol Deng that there's "no chance" of a deal sending him to the Warriors, league source tells Y!
Posted by: Jake Jun 25 2012, 12:54 PM
K.C JohnsonKCJHoop 3 hrs
Not sure why Deng to Golden State rumors remain. GS over cap, which would defeat purpose of trading into cap space and not taking back $.
Posted by: Jake Jun 25 2012, 12:55 PM
Chicago Bullschicagobulls 4 hrs
Fit for the Kings? #Bulls’ Luol Deng likely staying put, writes @SamSmithHoops bit.ly/Q2Q1UD with the @NBA Draft approaching
Posted by: Jake Jun 25 2012, 04:05 PM
Sam SmithSamSmithHoops 49 secs
Lots of talk regarding Luol Deng and not a whole lot of action anticipated
bit.ly/Q2Q1UD
Posted by: Jake Jun 25 2012, 04:26 PM
Marc BermanNYPost_Berman 2 hrs
Not good for #Knicks as Nash says money big factor in free agency. Grunwald may only have $3M midlevel - not $5M nyp.st/LlSips
QUOTE
While saying he is still “open to everything’’, Steve Nash acknowledged money will be a big factor in his free-agent decision and admitted former coach Mike D’Antoni would have been a plus for the Knicks’ chances of landing him.
The Knicks have neither – a large amount of money to offer nor D’Antoni, making them a longshot. Nash’s coach in Phoenix resigned in March after his feud with Carmelo Anthony.
...
Either way, Nash is expected to get larger offers, especially from his club, Phoenix. Certainly, a $3 million mid-level offer won’t be competitive.
Appearing on ESPN Radio on Monday to promote his soccer tournament Wednesday in Chinatown, Nash was asked whether winning a title or being compensated financially was more important. Most athletes talk about winning a title as the only driving force but Nash didn’t go down that road.
“I definitely feel I want to be validated monetarily to an extent,’’ Nash said. “It’s still very important. I think money in many ways represents respect. For example, if you sign with a team and take half or less money, six months later they trade you. It has to be one of the factors. It’s not everything but it is important and will be one of the factors involved.’’
...
“Yeah, It sounds like a company line but my situation right now is I’m open to anything,’’ Nash said. “I really don’t know until the 1st what concrete opportunties will be there. But I’ll definitely look at every situation comes my way Sunday and not close myself to any opportunities.’’
The Knicks will attempt to sell Nash on the club not being so far away from reigning champion Miami.
“It’s nice to have that idea, I want to win a championship,’’ Nash said. “That’s also difficult. You can turn down a ton of money for a team you think can win a championship and there’s an injury and the chemistry isn’t right and you’re traded in six months. I have to put all the things into the hat.’’
Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/blogs/knicksblog/agency_good_for_knicks_nash_says_xs9a6wZyjph2gYwnosNoGM#ixzz1yqWHlcXh
The Knicks have neither – a large amount of money to offer nor D’Antoni, making them a longshot. Nash’s coach in Phoenix resigned in March after his feud with Carmelo Anthony.
...
Either way, Nash is expected to get larger offers, especially from his club, Phoenix. Certainly, a $3 million mid-level offer won’t be competitive.
Appearing on ESPN Radio on Monday to promote his soccer tournament Wednesday in Chinatown, Nash was asked whether winning a title or being compensated financially was more important. Most athletes talk about winning a title as the only driving force but Nash didn’t go down that road.
“I definitely feel I want to be validated monetarily to an extent,’’ Nash said. “It’s still very important. I think money in many ways represents respect. For example, if you sign with a team and take half or less money, six months later they trade you. It has to be one of the factors. It’s not everything but it is important and will be one of the factors involved.’’
...
“Yeah, It sounds like a company line but my situation right now is I’m open to anything,’’ Nash said. “I really don’t know until the 1st what concrete opportunties will be there. But I’ll definitely look at every situation comes my way Sunday and not close myself to any opportunities.’’
The Knicks will attempt to sell Nash on the club not being so far away from reigning champion Miami.
“It’s nice to have that idea, I want to win a championship,’’ Nash said. “That’s also difficult. You can turn down a ton of money for a team you think can win a championship and there’s an injury and the chemistry isn’t right and you’re traded in six months. I have to put all the things into the hat.’’
Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/blogs/knicksblog/agency_good_for_knicks_nash_says_xs9a6wZyjph2gYwnosNoGM#ixzz1yqWHlcXh
Posted by: steve9347 Jun 27 2012, 09:16 AM
I wish we could get rid of Luol. I don't know why the organization is so fond of him. He shouldn't have been an All-Star last year.
Posted by: 2nd_city_saint787 Jun 27 2012, 09:59 AM
QUOTE (steve9347 @ Jun 27 2012, 09:16 AM)
I wish we could get rid of Luol. I don't know why the organization is so fond of him. He shouldn't have been an All-Star last year.
Ya I think it makes a ton of sense to do it this year, and by this year I mean today or tomorrow. I suppose he may have more value next year if he comes back and has a good season, teams may be hesitant to trade for a guy whos gonna miss 1/3 of the season...I just hope they move him before free agency next year and couple it with the amnesty of Booze and make a run at a guy like Hardin (who hopefully OKC doesn't have enough $$ to sign).
Posted by: rockren Jun 27 2012, 10:53 AM
QUOTE (steve9347 @ Jun 27 2012, 10:16 AM)
I wish we could get rid of Luol. I don't know why the organization is so fond of him. He shouldn't have been an All-Star last year.
Lu was an all-star last season for what he did in '10 as he got the shaft when Bosh was taken over him.
I'm not a fan of moving Lu for just anything, but if the Bulls got a lottery pick they really liked and dropped Lu's salary at the same time......I can't argue considering it will be very difficult for the Bulls to win it all next year with losing Rose for so much of the year.
Posted by: Steve9347 Jun 27 2012, 11:07 AM
QUOTE (rockren @ Jun 27 2012, 11:53 AM)
Lu was an all-star last season for what he did in '10 as he got the shaft when Bosh was taken over him.
Chris Bosh had a PER of 25 that year, while Deng had a 16.
Posted by: Quinarvy Jun 27 2012, 01:22 PM
Luol Deng was a gratuity All-Star like Mo Williams and Jameer Nelson.
I was happy for him, but let's not act like he was a bonafide All-Star.
Posted by: Steve9347 Jun 27 2012, 01:29 PM
Exactly.
Posted by: rockren Jun 27 2012, 02:33 PM
QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Jun 27 2012, 02:22 PM)
Luol Deng was a gratuity All-Star like Mo Williams and Jameer Nelson.
I was happy for him, but let's not act like he was a bonafide All-Star.
I was happy for him, but let's not act like he was a bonafide All-Star.
Agree to disagree.
Lu often draws the toughest cover and is our best defender....Lu for President.
Posted by: rockren Jun 27 2012, 02:33 PM
QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Jun 27 2012, 02:29 PM)
Exactly.
No.
Posted by: Quinarvy Jun 27 2012, 02:36 PM
QUOTE (rockren @ Jun 27 2012, 03:33 PM)
Agree to disagree.
Lu often draws the toughest cover and is our best defender....Lu for President.
Lu often draws the toughest cover and is our best defender....Lu for President.
Sure, when we play the Heat or the Knicks, he draws our toughest cover. I can't think of many other teams where he would. Lakers maybe.
And he is our 2nd best defender. Noah is the best one in my opinion.
Look, Deng is a good two way player, but his value will never be higher than this and last time we negotiated a contract with him, he was a pain in the ass.
Posted by: Balta1701-B Jun 27 2012, 02:44 PM
QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Jun 27 2012, 04:36 PM)
Sure, when we play the Heat or the Knicks, he draws our toughest cover. I can't think of many other teams where he would. Lakers maybe.
And he is our 2nd best defender. Noah is the best one in my opinion.
Look, Deng is a good two way player, but his value will never be higher than this and last time we negotiated a contract with him, he was a pain in the ass.
And he is our 2nd best defender. Noah is the best one in my opinion.
Look, Deng is a good two way player, but his value will never be higher than this and last time we negotiated a contract with him, he was a pain in the ass.
I really still do not think this is true. He gets closer to being an expiring deal next year, and I think the wrist injury would be a major concern for any contending team that could be itnerested in him.
Posted by: 2nd_city_saint787 Jun 27 2012, 02:47 PM
QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Jun 27 2012, 03:36 PM)
Sure, when we play the Heat or the Knicks, he draws our toughest cover. I can't think of many other teams where he would. Lakers maybe.
[b]And he is our 2nd best defender. Noah is the best one in my opinion.[/b]
Look, Deng is a good two way player, but his value will never be higher than this and last time we negotiated a contract with him, he was a pain in the ass.
[b]And he is our 2nd best defender. Noah is the best one in my opinion.[/b]
Look, Deng is a good two way player, but his value will never be higher than this and last time we negotiated a contract with him, he was a pain in the ass.
You can argue Taj being better than Lu too...I also think Butler can be on par with Deng defensively, you dont bring a kid in to guard Bron and Melo unless he's a really good defensive player.
Posted by: 2nd_city_saint787 Jun 27 2012, 02:57 PM
QUOTE (Balta1701-B @ Jun 27 2012, 03:44 PM)
I really still do not think this is true. He gets closer to being an expiring deal next year, and I think the wrist injury would be a major concern for any contending team that could be itnerested in him.
As I posted in another thread I agree with this... I will say though that I like this draft class so making a deal today or tomorrow is somewhat ideal. Also, since this coming up year is being considered a write off year, it'd be nice to get that rookie this year and let him gel with the team.
Posted by: Quinarvy Jun 27 2012, 03:05 PM
QUOTE (2nd_city_saint787 @ Jun 27 2012, 03:47 PM)
You can argue Taj being better than Lu too...I also think Butler can be on par with Deng defensively, you dont bring a kid in to guard Bron and Melo unless he's a really good defensive player.
This is true.
Butler actually did a good job slowing down Bron and Melo for the brief moments he was on them. It's because he's mobile, but is somewhat built so he can get in their way.
Posted by: rockren Jun 27 2012, 03:10 PM
QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Jun 27 2012, 03:36 PM)
Sure, when we play the Heat or the Knicks, he draws our toughest cover. I can't think of many other teams where he would. Lakers maybe.
And he is our 2nd best defender. Noah is the best one in my opinion.
Look, Deng is a good two way player, but his value will never be higher than this and last time we negotiated a contract with him, he was a pain in the ass.
And he is our 2nd best defender. Noah is the best one in my opinion.
Look, Deng is a good two way player, but his value will never be higher than this and last time we negotiated a contract with him, he was a pain in the ass.
So when we play the Sixers (Iggy), Celts (Pierce), Raps (DeRozan), Pacers (Granger)....all are teams we'll see in the regular season and potentially in the playoffs within the next two years.
In the West you've got the Thunder (Durant), Lakers (Kobe), Ginobli (Spurs), Grizz (Gay) hell he's even drawn Dirk during spirts.
Add the Knicks/Heat into the mix and that adds to about 34 games of the regular season and almost half of the schedule where he would draw those covers.
Posted by: rockren Jun 27 2012, 03:11 PM
QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Jun 27 2012, 04:05 PM)
This is true.
Butler actually did a good job slowing down Bron and Melo for the brief moments he was on them. It's because he's mobile, but is somewhat built so he can get in their way.
Butler actually did a good job slowing down Bron and Melo for the brief moments he was on them. It's because he's mobile, but is somewhat built so he can get in their way.
I felt Butler covered Melo better than any Bull when they saw the Knicks last year.
Posted by: Quinarvy Jun 27 2012, 03:15 PM
QUOTE (rockren @ Jun 27 2012, 04:10 PM)
So when we play the Sixers (Iggy), Celts (Pierce), Raps (DeRozan), Pacers (Granger)....all are teams we'll see in the regular season and potentially in the playoffs within the next two years.
In the West you've got the Thunder (Durant), Lakers (Kobe), Ginobli (Spurs), Grizz (Gay) hell he's even drawn Dirk during spirts.
Add the Knicks/Heat into the mix and that adds to about 34 games of the regular season and almost half of the schedule where he would draw those covers.
In the West you've got the Thunder (Durant), Lakers (Kobe), Ginobli (Spurs), Grizz (Gay) hell he's even drawn Dirk during spirts.
Add the Knicks/Heat into the mix and that adds to about 34 games of the regular season and almost half of the schedule where he would draw those covers.
I'll give you Granger and Durant.
Sixers don't have a "toughest cover"...but it wouldn't be Iggy. Celts' hardest is Rondo. Raptors don't count as a team. Grizzlies' toughest is Z-Bo or Marc Gasol.
Posted by: rockren Jun 27 2012, 03:20 PM
QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Jun 27 2012, 04:15 PM)
I'll give you Granger and Durant.
Sixers don't have a "toughest cover"...but it wouldn't be Iggy. Celts' hardest is Rondo. Raptors don't count as a team. Grizzlies' toughest is Z-Bo or Marc Gasol.
Sixers don't have a "toughest cover"...but it wouldn't be Iggy. Celts' hardest is Rondo. Raptors don't count as a team. Grizzlies' toughest is Z-Bo or Marc Gasol.
Iggy, Pierece, DeRozan and Gay all get the ball down the stretch and Deng has to guard them.
Posted by: Quinarvy Jun 27 2012, 10:43 PM
QUOTE (rockren @ Jun 27 2012, 04:20 PM)
Iggy, Pierece, DeRozan and Gay all get the ball down the stretch and Deng has to guard them.
Of those 4, DeRozan and Gay would. Iggy generally failed to close, any 4 of the Celtics could get the ball, but it was mainly Rondo this year.
Posted by: Jake Jun 27 2012, 10:50 PM
Hard to pass judgment on Butler's defense given the extremely limited minutes he had last year.
It is also terribly difficult to judge a center's defense vs a wing's. One thing to keep in mind is there aren't many great centers in the league anymore and I have to think that a Noah isn't going to do all that well against Dwight Howard anyway.
On the other hand, Noah has a much more significant role as a help defender than Luol ever could.
I don't know, they were both very integral in making our defense so tough these past two years.
I stand by my sentiment that Noah is more difficult to replace...making his value to us higher.
Posted by: Quinarvy Jun 28 2012, 01:10 AM
QUOTE (Jake @ Jun 27 2012, 11:50 PM)
Hard to pass judgment on Butler's defense given the extremely limited minutes he had last year.
It is also terribly difficult to judge a center's defense vs a wing's. One thing to keep in mind is there aren't many great centers in the league anymore and I have to think that a Noah isn't going to do all that well against Dwight Howard anyway.
On the other hand, Noah has a much more significant role as a help defender than Luol ever could.
I don't know, they were both very integral in making our defense so tough these past two years.
I stand by my sentiment that Noah is more difficult to replace...making his value to us higher.
It is also terribly difficult to judge a center's defense vs a wing's. One thing to keep in mind is there aren't many great centers in the league anymore and I have to think that a Noah isn't going to do all that well against Dwight Howard anyway.
On the other hand, Noah has a much more significant role as a help defender than Luol ever could.
I don't know, they were both very integral in making our defense so tough these past two years.
I stand by my sentiment that Noah is more difficult to replace...making his value to us higher.
Noah can D up on the wing...so can Taj. It's very rare to have post defenders that can do that.
It's not odd to see Joakim on LeBron.
Posted by: 2nd_city_saint787 Jul 1 2012, 12:29 AM
Need to bump this baby... Its free agency time and there a lot of interesting UDFA out there.
Apparently John Shurna worked out for the Bulls before the draft. If he can guard SFs at the NBA level I'd love to give him a shot at taking over in Korvers spot.
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-06-26/sports/chi-nus-shurna-works-out-for-bulls-lights-it-up-for-bucks-20120626_1_nu-s-shurna-tom-thibodeau-bulls-jersey
Henry Sims sure would look nice over Asik. Omers D is nice but his butterfingers and lack of offensive game is really, REALLY annoying. Give me the 7 footer from Georgetown, those guys tend to be pretty good.
If Shurna can't be relied on to play SF then William Bufford would be nice.
Aaron Brooks/Teague
Rip/Butler
Lu/Shurna
Boozer/Taj
Noah/Sims
If Shurna can't play the 3 then swap him with Bufford and switch him and Butler.
Not sure how much Aaron Brooks is gonna make this offseason, I think he's certainly worth more than the 5 mil MLE we have but he played in China last year so maybe he would take a 1 year 5mill contract?
Posted by: 2nd_city_saint787 Jul 1 2012, 12:30 AM
I posted that last post twice and don't know how to delete it so I'll just edit it...Who do you guys want to see added in free agency??
Posted by: Quinarvy Jul 1 2012, 03:18 AM
Holy cow I do not want to pay Asik a full MLE.
Sign and trade him if that's going to be the case.
Posted by: Jake Jul 1 2012, 09:42 AM
QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Jul 1 2012, 03:18 AM)
Holy cow I do not want to pay Asik a full MLE.
Sign and trade him if that's going to be the case.
Sign and trade him if that's going to be the case.
Agreed.
Also, I hope this team includes no UDFA. Why are we dead set on taking on those guys over veterans? Sure, we don't know what they'd do in the NBA but that's because the chances are they're terrible.
Posted by: Balta1701-B Jul 1 2012, 10:51 AM
QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Jul 1 2012, 05:18 AM)
Holy cow I do not want to pay Asik a full MLE.
Sign and trade him if that's going to be the case.
Sign and trade him if that's going to be the case.
A seven footer? I'd be really surprised if no one offered him the full MLE or more.
Posted by: 2nd_city_saint787 Jul 1 2012, 11:18 AM
QUOTE (Jake @ Jul 1 2012, 10:42 AM)
Agreed.
Also, I hope this team includes no UDFA. Why are we dead set on taking on those guys over veterans? Sure, we don't know what they'd do in the NBA but that's because the chances are they're terrible.
Also, I hope this team includes no UDFA. Why are we dead set on taking on those guys over veterans? Sure, we don't know what they'd do in the NBA but that's because the chances are they're terrible.
Henry Sims over Asik is the one UDFA I really would love to see. Sims D may not be on Asiks level but if he's getting over the MLE then I think Sims is really good cheap replacement that allows you to spend more on guards....I thought Shurna would be nice when I was buzzed last night lol
http://www.nba.com/draft/2012/prospects/henry-sims/index.html Henry Sims looks like the perfect guy to line up next to Mirotic when he comes over. He's a big 7 footer who's a great passer, I'm shocked he wasn't drafted.
Posted by: madisonsmadhouse Jul 1 2012, 11:48 AM
QUOTE (Jake @ Jul 1 2012, 10:42 AM)
Agreed.
Also, I hope this team includes no UDFA. Why are we dead set on taking on those guys over veterans? Sure, we don't know what they'd do in the NBA but that's because the chances are they're terrible.
Also, I hope this team includes no UDFA. Why are we dead set on taking on those guys over veterans? Sure, we don't know what they'd do in the NBA but that's because the chances are they're terrible.
Because Jarrod Jones with the Bulls would be awesomeness.
Posted by: Chicago Bulls Franchise Jul 2 2012, 04:59 PM
Joe Johnson apparently going to NJ for cap space to Atlanta. This also means that the Nets can't afford Howard anymore if DWill re-signs. Time to pick up that phone again if you're the Bulls. They probably aren't anywhere near the top of his list but if LA decides to keep Bynum, it only increases their chances. Dallas was the other spot Howard wanted to go to but I'm pretty sure that was all contingent on Deron following their with him. The Mavs have the capspace for him but Dwight technically isn't a FA. Don't think they can offer a very entertaining trade package either. The Bulls have a good shot at landing Dwight if the GM chooses to send him to the team that offers the best value in return. But that's is then assuming he would sign an extension here if the other teams can't acquire him first.
Posted by: ZoomSlowik Jul 2 2012, 06:14 PM
QUOTE (Chicago Bulls Franchise @ Jul 2 2012, 05:59 PM)
Joe Johnson apparently going to NJ for cap space to Atlanta. This also means that the Nets can't afford Howard anymore if DWill re-signs. Time to pick up that phone again if you're the Bulls. They probably aren't anywhere near the top of his list but if LA decides to keep Bynum, it only increases their chances. Dallas was the other spot Howard wanted to go to but I'm pretty sure that was all contingent on Deron following their with him. The Mavs have the capspace for him but Dwight technically isn't a FA. Don't think they can offer a very entertaining trade package either. The Bulls have a good shot at landing Dwight if the GM chooses to send him to the team that offers the best value in return. But that's is then assuming he would sign an extension here if the other teams can't acquire him first.
Dwight has made it clear he's only signing in one place. The Bulls probably aren't moving Noah-plus unless that changes.
Prepare for Brook Lopez and/or Kris Humphries to be signed and traded there, possibly with Marshon Brooks and/or picks.
Posted by: GreatScott82 Jul 3 2012, 07:21 AM
With Asik pretty much gone (unless Gar-Pax gets super creative), with Dengs wrist injury and Rose pretty much out for the season, a part of me wishes that the Bulls will miss the playoffs and enter next years draft lottery. Now I know Thibs will not allow this but next years NBA draft pool is projected to be very deep. Also, after this season cant the Bulls buy out Boozers deal to provide even more cap space?
I say lets shoot big for the 2013-14 season. The only thing worth watching for this season is the development of Teague.
Posted by: ZoomSlowik Jul 3 2012, 09:29 AM
QUOTE (GreatScott82 @ Jul 3 2012, 08:21 AM)
With Asik pretty much gone (unless Gar-Pax gets super creative), with Dengs wrist injury and Rose pretty much out for the season, a part of me wishes that the Bulls will miss the playoffs and enter next years draft lottery. Now I know Thibs will not allow this but next years NBA draft pool is projected to be very deep. Also, after this season cant the Bulls buy out Boozers deal to provide even more cap space?
I say lets shoot big for the 2013-14 season. The only thing worth watching for this season is the development of Teague.
I say lets shoot big for the 2013-14 season. The only thing worth watching for this season is the development of Teague.
It's really not projected to be a deep draft at all. After about #6 it's all guys that would have struggled to crack the first round this year and the second tier of freshmen from what is widely considered to be a weak class.
Posted by: dasox24 Jul 3 2012, 11:54 AM
QUOTE (GreatScott82 @ Jul 3 2012, 09:21 AM)
With Asik pretty much gone (unless Gar-Pax gets super creative), with Dengs wrist injury and Rose pretty much out for the season, a part of me wishes that the Bulls will miss the playoffs and enter next years draft lottery. Now I know Thibs will not allow this but next years NBA draft pool is projected to be very deep. Also, after this season cant the Bulls buy out Boozers deal to provide even more cap space?
I say lets shoot big for the 2013-14 season. The only thing worth watching for this season is the development of Teague.
I say lets shoot big for the 2013-14 season. The only thing worth watching for this season is the development of Teague.
I kind of feel the same way. I mean, I don't want to necessarily shoot for the lottery... but this season is a lost cause. Like you said, I'm more interested in the development of Teague and even Butler. We already know what we're getting with everyone else.
Posted by: Jake Jul 3 2012, 01:38 PM
Deng is slated to be ready for training camp. Derrick may be playing in January - maybe not full speed for the whole season, but 80% Derrick Rose is still an All-Star. Rip Hamilton is healthy (at least until he starts playing basketball again) and we have a nice young PG who will likely have a good veteran backup. With or without Asik doesn't matter a great deal to me (other than wasted money, I'm speaking in basketball terms) I do not believe his presence is a big factor in our W-L record unless there is a long term injury to Joakim. Even then, I'm not really sure depending on who we can bring in at vet's minimum.
Anyways, this team will make the playoffs and may even be an upper echelon seed.
Posted by: Balta1701-B Jul 3 2012, 02:44 PM
QUOTE (Jake @ Jul 3 2012, 03:38 PM)
Deng is slated to be ready for training camp. Derrick may be playing in January - maybe not full speed for the whole season, but 80% Derrick Rose is still an All-Star. Rip Hamilton is healthy (at least until he starts playing basketball again) and we have a nice young PG who will likely have a good veteran backup. With or without Asik doesn't matter a great deal to me (other than wasted money, I'm speaking in basketball terms) I do not believe his presence is a big factor in our W-L record unless there is a long term injury to Joakim. Even then, I'm not really sure depending on who we can bring in at vet's minimum.
Anyways, this team will make the playoffs and may even be an upper echelon seed.
Anyways, this team will make the playoffs and may even be an upper echelon seed.
Deng is slated to be training camp ready but he's going to be playing through that wrist injury, making him less effective. Rose will be less effective, limited in minutes, out of basketball shape, and really January would be a minor miracle. The Bulls will have less in the lane with Asik gone.
Boozer is another year older and is coming off his first injury free season in almost forever. SImilarly, we may never see Noah that healthy again.
If I'm pessimistic...this team has a whole lot of downside. It would be tough for them to wind up out of the playoffs if Deng plays 1/2 a season and Boozer and Noah are around, they're still good enough for that...but i can't look at this team without a 100% rose and think theyr'e competitive.
Posted by: ZoomSlowik Jul 3 2012, 02:46 PM
QUOTE (Jake @ Jul 3 2012, 02:38 PM)
Deng is slated to be ready for training camp. Derrick may be playing in January - maybe not full speed for the whole season, but 80% Derrick Rose is still an All-Star. Rip Hamilton is healthy (at least until he starts playing basketball again) and we have a nice young PG who will likely have a good veteran backup. With or without Asik doesn't matter a great deal to me (other than wasted money, I'm speaking in basketball terms) I do not believe his presence is a big factor in our W-L record unless there is a long term injury to Joakim. Even then, I'm not really sure depending on who we can bring in at vet's minimum.
Anyways, this team will make the playoffs and may even be an upper echelon seed.
Anyways, this team will make the playoffs and may even be an upper echelon seed.
The problem with that is you can't assume anything with Derrick. January is the earliest projection, and if his minutes have to be limited or he can't get to the rack like he used to, that's a huge problem for the Bulls. You can't really assume health for Rip, Deng, Boozer or Noah either since they've all had injury issues at one point or another.
If they can snag the 6-seed, I'd say you'd have to be pretty impressed and happy.
Posted by: Jake Jul 3 2012, 03:04 PM
QUOTE (ZoomSlowik @ Jul 3 2012, 02:46 PM)
The problem with that is you can't assume anything with Derrick. January is the earliest projection, and if his minutes have to be limited or he can't get to the rack like he used to, that's a huge problem for the Bulls. You can't really assume health for Rip, Deng, Boozer or Noah either since they've all had injury issues at one point or another.
If they can snag the 6-seed, I'd say you'd have to be pretty impressed and happy.
If they can snag the 6-seed, I'd say you'd have to be pretty impressed and happy.
Basically my case is this: it's a decent, playoff level team minus Rose. Sure they could have injuries, but you'll be hard pressed to find a team that doesn't have key players with a history of injuries. If everyone is hurt, yes that may be the end of our ability to compete.
Not counting on Rose to come back, but you have to be ready for it because it may indeed happen. He may be a 20ppg player by playoff time. He may not, but he'll still be an above average point guard in all likelihood. We like to s*** on these other players we're familiar with, but our 3-4-5 are all pretty good (whether they are worth the money is a discussion for another thread) and a timely revival from Rip makes the lineup pretty potent.
Posted by: Balta1701-B Jul 3 2012, 03:21 PM
QUOTE (ZoomSlowik @ Jul 3 2012, 04:46 PM)
The problem with that is you can't assume anything with Derrick. January is the earliest projection, and if his minutes have to be limited or he can't get to the rack like he used to, that's a huge problem for the Bulls. You can't really assume health for Rip, Deng, Boozer or Noah either since they've all had injury issues at one point or another.
If they can snag the 6-seed, I'd say you'd have to be pretty impressed and happy.
If they can snag the 6-seed, I'd say you'd have to be pretty impressed and happy.
You have to make a decision though. You have to either decide "Yes, I'm goign to hold onto this team and spend the luxury tax dollars because Rose will be back" or "I am not going into the luxury tax this year, I'm not going to spend the full MLE, and I'm going to let pieces like Asik walk, letting the team get worse to save money."
There's no in-between. If Rose comes back and by playoff time is 95% of where he was pre-injury....but you've subtracted Asik and Watson and added only a guy like Hinrich to cover Rose's offtime...that's not likely to get us past the Heat.
Posted by: Jake Jul 3 2012, 03:35 PM
I don't think losing Asik and Watson has a drastic effect on our ability to compete.
Posted by: Balta1701-B Jul 3 2012, 03:40 PM
QUOTE (Jake @ Jul 3 2012, 05:35 PM)
I don't think losing Asik and Watson has a drastic effect on our ability to compete.
It's not necessarily killer...but tell me this...what would the Bulls have next year that could possibly get better? About the only guys on the list that could improve are Hamilton, Butler, and Teague. There's not big upside to any of them, and there' significant downside if anyone else gets hurt.
And then what happens next offseason? The same setup...except now the entire remainder of the bench is free agents...including Gibson, who ought to out-earn Asik and who will be even tougher to keep.
If Derrick hadn't gotten hurt, there's good reason to think next year might have been our last legit title shot with this roster. Now without a 100% Rose though...the whole bench is lost and there's little in line to recover from it.
Posted by: rockren Jul 3 2012, 04:06 PM
QUOTE (Balta1701-B @ Jul 3 2012, 04:40 PM)
It's not necessarily killer...but tell me this...what would the Bulls have next year that could possibly get better? About the only guys on the list that could improve are Hamilton, Butler, and Teague. There's not big upside to any of them, and there' significant downside if anyone else gets hurt.
And then what happens next offseason? The same setup...except now the entire remainder of the bench is free agents...including Gibson, who ought to out-earn Asik and who will be even tougher to keep.
If Derrick hadn't gotten hurt, there's good reason to think next year might have been our last legit title shot with this roster. Now without a 100% Rose though...the whole bench is lost and there's little in line to recover from it.
And then what happens next offseason? The same setup...except now the entire remainder of the bench is free agents...including Gibson, who ought to out-earn Asik and who will be even tougher to keep.
If Derrick hadn't gotten hurt, there's good reason to think next year might have been our last legit title shot with this roster. Now without a 100% Rose though...the whole bench is lost and there's little in line to recover from it.
I agree that the Bulls have to be ready to re-tool a bit with what could be a tough year. I still feel the Bulls are over/under 45 wins next year, which should be good enough for the 6 seed. I don't beleive that means next year is a lost cause, but agree it isn't worth going over the luxury tax for, either. Epsecially if it costs us years down the line when Rose will still be in his prime should he fully recover.
I hate seeing Asik walk for nothing, but I don't mind so much on Watson.
Posted by: Jake Jul 3 2012, 04:17 PM
QUOTE (Balta1701-B @ Jul 3 2012, 03:40 PM)
It's not necessarily killer...but tell me this...what would the Bulls have next year that could possibly get better? About the only guys on the list that could improve are Hamilton, Butler, and Teague. There's not big upside to any of them, and there' significant downside if anyone else gets hurt.
And then what happens next offseason? The same setup...except now the entire remainder of the bench is free agents...including Gibson, who ought to out-earn Asik and who will be even tougher to keep.
If Derrick hadn't gotten hurt, there's good reason to think next year might have been our last legit title shot with this roster. Now without a 100% Rose though...the whole bench is lost and there's little in line to recover from it.
And then what happens next offseason? The same setup...except now the entire remainder of the bench is free agents...including Gibson, who ought to out-earn Asik and who will be even tougher to keep.
If Derrick hadn't gotten hurt, there's good reason to think next year might have been our last legit title shot with this roster. Now without a 100% Rose though...the whole bench is lost and there's little in line to recover from it.
Could improve? Deng will certainly improve the moment he is healthy. Boozer had basically a career worst year and stands to gain production when there are more touches to go around. Apparently Noah is seeing someone to work on his post game? I won't hold my breath for that. It's reasonable to think that Taj will take a step forward as well.
As I said previously, like most teams we're vulnerable to injuries, especially since we're starting the season already down at least 1 starter. I can't really plan for that to happen though.
Posted by: Balta1701-B Jul 3 2012, 04:18 PM
QUOTE (rockren @ Jul 3 2012, 06:06 PM)
I agree that the Bulls have to be ready to re-tool a bit with what could be a tough year. I still feel the Bulls are over/under 45 wins next year, which should be good enough for the 6 seed. I don't beleive that means next year is a lost cause, but agree it isn't worth going over the luxury tax for, either. Epsecially if it costs us years down the line when Rose will still be in his prime should he fully recover.
I hate seeing Asik walk for nothing, but I don't mind so much on Watson.
I hate seeing Asik walk for nothing, but I don't mind so much on Watson.
If the Bulls just stand pat, let Asik walk, and go into the year after, here's the roster:
PG: Rose, Teague
SG: Hamilton has an option, otherwise, none currently under contract.
C: Noah
SF: Deng, Butler
PF: Boozer
Even if you don't pick up Hamilton's option and don't sign anyone for the MLE this offseason, that's still sitting at close to $60 million...and that winds up with allowing Gibson to walk. If you keep Gibson, based on Asik's deal, that's maybe $8 million right there. So that's the Bulls roster, with enough room to add 1 MLE player and maybe stay under the luxury tax.
That looks a lot worse than what the Bulls ran out there this year. Especially with Boozer a year older, and no obvious shooting guard.
Only thing the Bulls would have to add to that would be a draft pick near #20. It's just a mess.
Posted by: Jake Jul 3 2012, 04:20 PM
Why do you think Boozer will return?
Posted by: Balta1701-B Jul 3 2012, 04:31 PM
QUOTE (Jake @ Jul 3 2012, 06:20 PM)
Why do you think Boozer will return?
Why would you Amnesty him if it only puts you $4 million below the cap line?
Posted by: rockren Jul 3 2012, 04:33 PM
QUOTE (Balta1701-B @ Jul 3 2012, 05:18 PM)
If the Bulls just stand pat, let Asik walk, and go into the year after, here's the roster:
PG: Rose, Teague
SG: Hamilton has an option, otherwise, none currently under contract.
C: Noah
SF: Deng, Butler
PF: Boozer
Even if you don't pick up Hamilton's option and don't sign anyone for the MLE this offseason, that's still sitting at close to $60 million...and that winds up with allowing Gibson to walk. If you keep Gibson, based on Asik's deal, that's maybe $8 million right there. So that's the Bulls roster, with enough room to add 1 MLE player and maybe stay under the luxury tax.
That looks a lot worse than what the Bulls ran out there this year. Especially with Boozer a year older, and no obvious shooting guard.
Only thing the Bulls would have to add to that would be a draft pick near #20. It's just a mess.
PG: Rose, Teague
SG: Hamilton has an option, otherwise, none currently under contract.
C: Noah
SF: Deng, Butler
PF: Boozer
Even if you don't pick up Hamilton's option and don't sign anyone for the MLE this offseason, that's still sitting at close to $60 million...and that winds up with allowing Gibson to walk. If you keep Gibson, based on Asik's deal, that's maybe $8 million right there. So that's the Bulls roster, with enough room to add 1 MLE player and maybe stay under the luxury tax.
That looks a lot worse than what the Bulls ran out there this year. Especially with Boozer a year older, and no obvious shooting guard.
Only thing the Bulls would have to add to that would be a draft pick near #20. It's just a mess.
IF the Bulls amnesty Boozer at the end of this season (they really really really should), re-sign Taj and don't exercise the option on Rip.......the Bulls should be fine.
Posted by: rockren Jul 3 2012, 04:36 PM
QUOTE (Balta1701-B @ Jul 3 2012, 05:31 PM)
Why would you Amnesty him if it only puts you $4 million below the cap line?
It would still be well worth it and that number would be closer to 9 Mil if they didn't exercise Rip.
Posted by: Balta1701-B Jul 3 2012, 04:39 PM
QUOTE (rockren @ Jul 3 2012, 06:33 PM)
IF the Bulls amnesty Boozer at the end of this season (they really really really should), re-sign Taj and don't exercise the option on Rip.......the Bulls should be fine.
Then they're still sitting there at $55 million or so with no shooting guard on the roster.
Posted by: rockren Jul 3 2012, 05:27 PM
QUOTE (Balta1701-B @ Jul 3 2012, 05:39 PM)
Then they're still sitting there at $55 million or so with no shooting guard on the roster.
That's fine.
A starting lineup of Rose, Keith Bogans type, Lu, Taj and Jo could be elite should we rebuild our bench again through the draft. I feel we're on the right track with the drafting of Teague.
Posted by: Balta1701-B Jul 3 2012, 06:36 PM
QUOTE (rockren @ Jul 3 2012, 07:27 PM)
That's fine.
A starting lineup of Rose, Keith Bogans type, Lu, Taj and Jo could be elite should we rebuild our bench again through the draft. I feel we're on the right track with the drafting of Teague.
A starting lineup of Rose, Keith Bogans type, Lu, Taj and Jo could be elite should we rebuild our bench again through the draft. I feel we're on the right track with the drafting of Teague.
I feel like that was the 2010 roster except the 2010 roster had a deeper bench. And it wasn't as good as the Heat.
Posted by: Jake Jul 3 2012, 10:32 PM
You amnesty Boozer to sign Taj, who in a perfect world would be cheaper but at the worst I imagine it will be a wash, which saves us money by not paying Taj what he is making now.
Posted by: madisonsmadhouse Jul 5 2012, 08:26 AM
QUOTE (ZoomSlowik @ Jul 2 2012, 07:14 PM)
Dwight has made it clear he's only signing in one place. The Bulls probably aren't moving Noah-plus unless that changes.
Prepare for Brook Lopez and/or Kris Humphries to be signed and traded there, possibly with Marshon Brooks and/or picks.
Prepare for Brook Lopez and/or Kris Humphries to be signed and traded there, possibly with Marshon Brooks and/or picks.
To me, it is worth the shot. With what you give up to get Dwight, even if he doesn't resign it gives you cap room in 2013-14 and allows you to do a semi-rebuild.
It also gives you the chance to spend a year smooching his behind to try to get him to stay here long term.
My feeling is that if you want to win an NBA title with Rose, this is your chance. What other chances do you have?
Posted by: WHarris1 Jul 5 2012, 08:33 AM
QUOTE (madisonsmadhouse @ Jul 5 2012, 09:26 AM)
To me, it is worth the shot. With what you give up to get Dwight, even if he doesn't resign it gives you cap room in 2013-14 and allows you to do a semi-rebuild.
It also gives you the chance to spend a year smooching his behind to try to get him to stay here long term.
My feeling is that if you want to win an NBA title with Rose, this is your chance. What other chances do you have?
It also gives you the chance to spend a year smooching his behind to try to get him to stay here long term.
My feeling is that if you want to win an NBA title with Rose, this is your chance. What other chances do you have?
I have been behind this belief for a while now.
Even in the nightmare scenario where he does decide to bounce, you pretty much are just expediting your re-tooling process as it is.
And realistically if he comes here and actually has to play for an entire season and you can't convince him that Chicago is awesome, DRose is God, and he has a tremendous chance to win a title here then something is seriously fucked up.
Posted by: Balta1701-B Jul 5 2012, 09:01 AM
QUOTE (WHarris1 @ Jul 5 2012, 10:33 AM)
And realistically if he comes here and actually has to play for an entire season and you can't convince him that Chicago is awesome, DRose is God, and he has a tremendous chance to win a title here then something is seriously fucked up.
He'd also have to play for a coach who is going to demand high effort from him and an organization that isn't interested in giving him special priveledges/power over the GM's slot.
Posted by: madisonsmadhouse Jul 5 2012, 09:06 AM
QUOTE (Balta1701-B @ Jul 5 2012, 10:01 AM)
He'd also have to play for a coach who is going to demand high effort from him and an organization that isn't interested in giving him special priveledges/power over the GM's slot.
And if he is more interested in being a Dbag than winning a title, you start your rebuild with the knowledge that you gave your franchise the best shot possible at winning an NBA title. What more can you ask for as a fan?
Posted by: ZoomSlowik Jul 5 2012, 09:38 AM
QUOTE (madisonsmadhouse @ Jul 5 2012, 09:26 AM)
To me, it is worth the shot. With what you give up to get Dwight, even if he doesn't resign it gives you cap room in 2013-14 and allows you to do a semi-rebuild.
It also gives you the chance to spend a year smooching his behind to try to get him to stay here long term.
My feeling is that if you want to win an NBA title with Rose, this is your chance. What other chances do you have?
It also gives you the chance to spend a year smooching his behind to try to get him to stay here long term.
My feeling is that if you want to win an NBA title with Rose, this is your chance. What other chances do you have?
If he walks at the end of the year, that's not really much of a chance. Then you're stuck in a very Cleveland-like situation where you have Rose and whatever contracts Orlando dumped on you to facilitate the trade.
Posted by: Jake Jul 5 2012, 09:41 AM
It's really a solid idea, depending on exactly what you have to give up. Have to wonder if Orlando isn't barking up that tree just due to the fact that they don't want to risk making Chicago into a perennial champion in their own conference...but then again, they risk that almost anywhere they send him.
Posted by: Jake Jul 5 2012, 09:42 AM
QUOTE (ZoomSlowik @ Jul 5 2012, 09:38 AM)
If he walks at the end of the year, that's not really much of a chance. Then you're stuck in a very Cleveland-like situation where you have Rose and whatever contracts Orlando dumped on you to facilitate the trade.
You think they'd send ADDITIONAL money over? That would make it even harder to match salaries I'd think. You definitely can't do it if you end up with not that much cap room if he leaves. You'd want room for a max contract plus another big name player if he left.
Posted by: ZoomSlowik Jul 5 2012, 10:39 AM
QUOTE (Jake @ Jul 5 2012, 10:42 AM)
You think they'd send ADDITIONAL money over? That would make it even harder to match salaries I'd think. You definitely can't do it if you end up with not that much cap room if he leaves. You'd want room for a max contract plus another big name player if he left.
That's what virtually any Dwight offer involves, taking at least one horrible contract back. Brooklyn can't do that, which is problematic.
If I had to guess, it'd be something like Noah, Deng and picks for Dwight and either Jason Richardson or Glen Davis. Orlando might try to tack on one of those guys with options to try to get us to take the other guy above or Chris Duhon.
Past rumors had been that they were trying to dump Hedo in the same deal, but he's only got one year and a partially guaranteed year left.
So you'd be stuck with at least one undesireable contract, still be stuck with Boozer, and probably having to fork out $8 mil for Gibson. And you're back in the free agency game where the Bulls always lose, with by far the best guy on the market already telling you no. You're also not likely to take a big-time point guard either, which eliminates Chris Paul.
Posted by: madisonsmadhouse Jul 5 2012, 12:17 PM
QUOTE (ZoomSlowik @ Jul 5 2012, 11:39 AM)
That's what virtually any Dwight offer involves, taking at least one horrible contract back. Brooklyn can't do that, which is problematic.
If I had to guess, it'd be something like Noah, Deng and picks for Dwight and either Jason Richardson or Glen Davis. Orlando might try to tack on one of those guys with options to try to get us to take the other guy above or Chris Duhon.
Past rumors had been that they were trying to dump Hedo in the same deal, but he's only got one year and a partially guaranteed year left.
So you'd be stuck with at least one undesireable contract, still be stuck with Boozer, and probably having to fork out $8 mil for Gibson. And you're back in the free agency game where the Bulls always lose, with by far the best guy on the market already telling you no. You're also not likely to take a big-time point guard either, which eliminates Chris Paul.
If I had to guess, it'd be something like Noah, Deng and picks for Dwight and either Jason Richardson or Glen Davis. Orlando might try to tack on one of those guys with options to try to get us to take the other guy above or Chris Duhon.
Past rumors had been that they were trying to dump Hedo in the same deal, but he's only got one year and a partially guaranteed year left.
So you'd be stuck with at least one undesireable contract, still be stuck with Boozer, and probably having to fork out $8 mil for Gibson. And you're back in the free agency game where the Bulls always lose, with by far the best guy on the market already telling you no. You're also not likely to take a big-time point guard either, which eliminates Chris Paul.
Boozer can always been amnestied.
Posted by: ZoomSlowik Jul 5 2012, 12:26 PM
QUOTE (madisonsmadhouse @ Jul 5 2012, 01:17 PM)
Boozer can always been amnestied.
Yeah, but that's a major chun of cash they have to come up with, and they'd still have like $30 mil committed to Rose, Richardson/Davis and Gibson, not counting draft picks/vet min guys that you have on the roster. You'd really only have enough room for one max-type contract, and as I said, the top-2 guys on the market wouldn't be options.
Powered by Invision Power Board (http://www.invisionboard.com)
© Invision Power Services (http://www.invisionpower.com)