The Kobe-MJ Comparisons get on my nerves so much. Kobe Bryant, as great of a player as he is (Hall of Famer in fact), he is nowhere close to Michael Jordan or players like Magic, Bird, Kareem, Russell, or Chamberlain when it comes to both individual and team accolades AND historic impact. Shaq and Duncan are still ahead of him too, but all of a sudden he is the best player of this era?!

Look Kobe is good, and his skill set is comparable to MJs (it should be, cause Kobe's game is like a carbon copy, although he shoots the three more). But as all of you have said before, the success does not match by any stretch of the imagination.

Kobe throwing up 81 is when this new love fest began really. He should get props, great game. But, is it really more impressive than Wilt's 100 or Pete Maravich throwing up 68 on Walt Frazier or Elgin Baylor scoring 70 something points? Hard to say, because the league is very different. The point is, however, that people are on Kobe right now because he is hot right now. People forget how great the older players are, even happening to MJ who played relatively recent.

When Kobe wins some titles as the lead guy, couple more MVPs and All-NBA selections, it will be a better comparison. If anyone has a chance of joining the Jordan/Kareem/Magic/Bird/Wilt/Russell group playing now, it's LeBron James (pending a #2 option).

What's up guys? Long-time no see. Senior in high school here, so I've been neglecting the boards.

Anyway, I had good vibes all day. It was my last day of classes, so had that working in my favor. The actual draft happens on my birthday, so that was another plus. I had been saying we would get a top 3 pick, but I didn't expect this! I'm so high right now!

I would totally take Rose without thinking twice. But the great thing about this draft is that you can pick Rose or Beasley and not be an immediate f*ck up.

Go Bulls! Although I'll miss most of the games while in college

2006 kind of sucked. I was an Aldridge guy, and I wanted Brewer. I trusted Pax on this one, and I'll still have faith in his decision until it is clear that it has backfired. However, it scares me to think how good the Blazers will be with Oden, Aldridge, and Roy. What if they end up with another lottery pick. They could add Rose, Gordon, or Mayo and then their NBA Champs for the next 10 years (if Oden pans out).

Under my approach to evaluating players, Barkley finished higher than Robinson and Ewing. It involves a lot of different factors, and Barkley shined just a little more than Robinson or Ewing taking a holistic approach to the subject. Robinson really would have ended up much higher (Frazier and Reed as well) had he not suffered that injury back in 1996. Ewing was just always a step behind it seemed of the other big centers of the time (Olajuwon, Shaq, Robinson). Also, it took him a good time before he became an elite rebounder at the center position.

Pistol Pete is another one who lost his career to injury, but unlike many of the others, he had not really accomplished anything. He is on the list for his impact alone, because that is really all he has to fall back on. College is not considered, this is a ranking of pro players, the best of the best, so that can't help Pistol Pete's stock either. I've watched a lot of old games and videos and highlights and I will say this. Talent-wise, Maravich is one of the 10 best players to play in the league.

Duncan I feel should definitely be top 10. 4 titles as the best player on his team. 22/12/3 for his career plus incredible intangibles and defensive presence. I really can't argue against him. His stats really are not all that inferior to other people, and his intangibles allowed him to change the game quietly. He changes the game more without making a blip on the stat sheet than anyone in the league right now. In comparison, there are players with numbers who have less impact on the game. And of course, he always was a dominant player in the playoffs.

LeBron should not be on the list. Why? Because when I made it I stipulated that players must be in their sixth year of play if active. This is LeBron's fifth year. I will tell you that I've been cheating a bit with him (I've been moving him up as his career moves along). If he continues at his current pace, even if he doesn't win a title, he will be up there next to Karl Malone and Elgin Baylor. Not bad at all.

Steve Nash = #60. Considering he was nowhere near the list three years ago, I'd say that is a steady improvement. If he can win a title, it would cause him to rise immensely, as he will already be moving up this year with another All-Star and All-NBA First Team selection. Kidd has done what Nash has done only 8 years longer. Big edge there. Even with his mediocre shooting percentage, he was a Top 5 NBA Player for about a decade.

Hope more people decide to post. It's fun talking about this stuff.

Don't know if you guys remember this, but I posted this a while back. I have been keeping track of it and making revisions. The list goes past 50, but I'll stick to 50 for now. Tell me what you think.

(1) Michael Jordan
(2) Wilt Chamberlain
(3) Magic Johnson
(4) Larry Bird
(5) Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
(6) Bill Russell
(7) Hakeem Olajuwon
(8) Tim Duncan*
(9) Shaquille O'Neal*
(10) Oscar Robertson
(11) Jerry West
(12) Julius Erving
(13) Karl Malone
(14) Elgin Baylor
(15) Bob Pettit
(16) John Havlicek
(17) Moses Malone
(18) Rick Barry
(19) Isiah Thomas
(20) John Stockton
(21) Charles Barkley
(22) Bob Cousy
(23) George Mikan
(24) Elvin Hayes
(25) Walt Frazier
(26) Kobe Bryant*
(27) David Robinson
(28) George Gervin
(29) Patrick Ewing
(30) Scottie Pippen
(31) Dolph Schayes
(32) Dave Cowens
(33) Willis Reed
(34) Clyde Drexler
(35) Paul Arizin
(36) Dominique Wilkins
(37) Kevin Garnett*
(38) Kevin McHale
(39) Wes Unseld
(40) Jason Kidd*
(41) Allen Iverson*
(42) Jerry Lucas
(43) Nate Thurmond
(44) Tiny Archibald
(45) Hal Greer
(46) Gary Payton
(47) Billy Cunningham
(48) Pete Maravich
(49) Dave DeBuscherre
(50) Earl Monroe

Kobe will be move up 1 or 2 spots by the end of the year. Garnett can move up a lot or not at all depending on how this season unfolds. Kidd, Iverson, Payton, Shaq appear to be done. Duncan could move up more with another title.

Dare to dream. Rose, Beasley, Gordon, Mayo, Batum: if the Bulls are going to play this poorly, might as well get a gem out of the deal. Hurts even more that we don't have one when you look at what LeBron and D12 are doing this year.

The slow starts are getting kind of old. Hinrich - 5th year, Gordon & Deng - 4th year. They should be ready. I understand there has been all this trade talk, but still. This is a team everyone was claiming as a contender out of the East, and at this moment, the Atlanta Hawks look more prepared than the Bulls do.

Maybe we should just forget this season so we can bring Derrick Rose or OJ Mayo to Chicago.

Been a while since I posted, but I'M IN!

Took me a while to reply, just noticed this comment.

My rationale for having Frazier so high was that he was the best PG of his era and is generally regarded as the best defensive point-guard ever. He was a member of two of the greatest teams in NBA History, leading the Knicks to the title in 1973 and carrying them and a hobbled Willis Reed past the Lakers in 1970 in one of the greatest performances in history. His playmaking was top-notch and he was clutch, bringing his best play for the playoffs. As far as bringing defense to the forefront he is as important as guys like Maravich, Monroe, and Archibald were for bringing flash. Before Frazier, defense was largely for the big guys. After, it became a desired trait for the perimeter players (Jerry West also deserves some credit for this as well).

As I stated with Cunningham, his longevity was solid for his era as well.

I'm not so sure replacing Tim Duncan with Kevin Garnett, because Tim Duncan plays a game more condusive to winning. Tim Duncan plays PF/C as a back-to-the-basket player, drawing double-teams and opening the lanes allowing his wing players to thrive. He anchors the defense and allows his teammates (Bowen) to gamble, because he's there to cover his tracks. Garnett does this on the defensive end as well, but his offensive game is really much more perimeter. He can go down-low, but he's really not a bruiser. I think for a player like Garnett to win he would need another banger down-low who can score in the way Duncan can. Saying that, he MAY have won one with Robinson in 1999, but after that it would be pretty hard. And I did not penalize him for not winning a championship. As you said Malone, Barkley, Stockton don't have titles, but they were tops at their positions and did make frequent and DEEP trips to the playoffs against superior competition. Garnett has time still though.

McAdoo in his early years was dominant. His second half of his career is very weak, him suffering from injury problems. His whole career he played for terrible teams, but he was still one of the best centers in a league full of them. Why I brought up the championships is to show that he became a productive player on a winning team when everybody though he was done. Yes he was not the lead or 2nd or 3rd guy, but he had major impact in limited minutes. Most importantly regarding his career, he made it possible for a guy like KG to play and that's why he is on there. But KG has been consistent for a long time. I'll have to look over KG, McAdoo, Maravich, Iverson, and Monroe again.

Now, when I said Barkley is harder to find than Ewing and Robinson, I never said that they were common, I was just saying a Barkley is more rare. A guy that did what he did against guys who were much bigger in an era with the amount of depth as the one he played in is why he is so highly regarded. Boozer and Brand can play similar, but neither has been quite on Charles' level, and that's something that goes past stats. For a while, Charles was the premier PF for the entire league (Malone outlasted him though), which is something those other guys can't say. It also doesn't help that Ewing was probably 4th best Center (but that goes along way in showing that depth I was talking about).

KG was fighting with Iverson for that last spot. I understand that statistically he is very close to Duncan, but there is something missing. KG just doesn't have that killer mentality which separated Iverson, another player with similar success in the playoffs. Iverson is also 6'0" so that is definitely helping him. Yes, Garnett is a versatile PF, but his precursor (Bob McAdoo) made the list ahead of him because he was more dominant in his prime and ended up winning two titles. His era also hurt him a bit as well, making him number 51. But remember is career is not over yet either. A change of scenery to Phoenix could jump him up quite a few spots.

Barkley in my mnd was just a special player. A small guy doing what he did down-low, amazing. You can find guys like Ewing and Robinson, but Barkley was unique.

Pistol Pete has almost no team success. If there was one player I'd move off it would be him, and put Kevin Garnett up into the Top 50. However, due to his impact on the game, he had to be included. A man ahead of his times. Earl Monroe (Pete's opposite in a way) was included for similar reasons, although he did win a championship and was a perennial playoff visitor. Monroe lacked the individual awards that Pete had (the opposite I mentioned). Longevity is kind of tricky too, but I decided not to dock him. Because what is a "long" career as evolved over time as training techniques and medical procedures have advanced. Example: for his time, Billy Cunningham had a solid career, although his 10 years looks different by today's standards.

Trust me, that wasn't intentional. The one that particularly stands out is 41-44, but when I tried to brake it down I felt there was little separating each of those guys so that's how you end up with three PGs in four spots.



Kobe was the hardest to rate. He has done a lot, but his success was in the role of the sidekick, like it was with Scottie. When looking at the guys ahead of him they all accomplished great things as leaders. Because of this I felt I couldn't put him that much higher than Scottie. Remember Kobe's career isn't done yet, so he could ... no, he will move up slightly even if that success doesn't come. But if it does come he could become the next Havlicek. The guy went from supporter on championship teams to leader. Kobe has that chance still.

Era and competition also played an important factor. That's how Shaq and Duncan are still behind Hakeem, and why I didn't move up Kobe yet.

One guy I still have trouble placing is George Mikan.

I read that too. The 76ers went out to see Yi workout and were impressed. But their GM still doesn't think he'll drop that far, just as Yi's agent told him. It is a possibility though. The only way I see him getting past the Bulls is if Horford falls. That's it.

I consider myself both a student of history and a student of the game. In some of my free time, rather than draw, I decided to construct a Top 50 list much like the NBA did back in 1996. There still may be a few kinks, but I think its solid right now. I have even taken it a little past, but I'll only put down the Top 50 for now. Tell me what you guys think (if you even care).

(1) Michael Jordan
(2) Wilt Chamberlain
(3) Magic Johnson
(4) Larry Bird
(5) Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
(6) Oscar Robertson
(7) Bill Russell
(8) Jerry West
(9) Julius Erving
(10) Hakeem Olajuwon
(11) Shaquille O'Neal*
(12) Tim Duncan*
(13) Karl Malone
(14) Elgin Baylor
(15) John Havlicek
(16) Bob Pettit
(17) Moses Malone
(18) Isiah Thomas
(19) Rick Barry
(20) John Stockton
(21) Charles Barkley
(22) Bob Cousy
(23) Walt Frazier
(24) Elvin Hayes
(25) David Robinson
(26) George Gervin
(27) Patrick Ewing
(28) Kobe Bryant*
(29) George Mikan
(30) Scottie Pippen
(31) Kevin McHale
(32) Dave Cowens
(33) Willis Reed
(34) Dominique Wilkins
(35) Clyde Drexler
(36) Dolph Schayes
(37) Wes Unseld
(38) Paul Arizin
(39) Nate Thurmond
(40) Billy Cunningham
(41) Gary Payton*
(42) Jerry Lucas
(43) Jason Kidd*
(44) Nate Archibald
(45) Hal Greer
(46) Dave DeBusschere
(47) Earl Monroe
(48) Bob McAdoo
(49) Pete Maravich
(50) Allen Iverson*

Yep that's what I'm hearing. For a while I was hearing Danny Ainge in Boston was keen on Yi, but now he's leaning more towards Corey Brewer, who is a safer pick. I could definitely see the Bulls trying to move up to snag Yi. He is a high risk/high reward pick, but he has that star potential nobody on the team save Tyrus Thomas has, and that is exactly what the Bulls could use. With LeBron James, Dwyane Wade, and Chris Bosh poised to battle for the East crown for the next 10-12 years, the Bulls are gonna need some star power to fight with them. They most likely are not going to sneak a title out like the Pistons did versus the Lakers. That was luck most of all because their opponent was fighting with themselves more than against the other team. I don't see that happening again.

MJ would not shut down LeBron James, but he would make him look a lot worse than the weak defenders today can. You just can't stop a great player, they will find ways to get their stats, but great defenders make it incredibly hard. MJ in his prime could probably drop LeBron to around 25 on 44% shooting, take away an assist or two, and maybe a rebound or two. Actually, Pippen would be even better.

They could do that, but I think that the three division winners should get three automatic bids. Then they should take the other five teams and division winners and seed them based on record. This years Eastern Conference would have looked like this:

(1) Detroit*
(2) Cleveland
(3) Chicago
(4) Toronto*
(5) Miami*
(6) New Jersey
(7) Washington
(8) Orlando

Division leaders should not be given preference if they were subpar.

OT - Bulls vs. Nets ECF

Spencer Hawes entering draft without agent. Would be a solid pickup for the Bulls.

Draft Express

It was frustrating to watch that. The best game winning opportunity was when Gordon came off the screen to shoot that last three. The problem with Gordon is that he can get his own shot only when there is one defender. The moment you double team him he gets trapped. He does not possess the handles to dribble in between both and because of his height he can't see over someone like Anderson Varejao. He was put in a bad spot.

Also, it may have been crazy for him to get 4 straight opportunities but whoelse is going to take the shot. Everytime another Bulls player got the ball did they think about taking the shot themselves? The first thing they did was try to get the ball to Ben. He was our best shot and it didin't work out. Overall it is a combination of Ben not having the proper skills and the opposing defense keying into our #1 option. I think we will see many more finishes like this until we get someone who can score downlow and open up space for a Gordon GW or even a Hinrich GW.

I will go with Dennis Rodman because of the rebounding numbers he put up during the era he played in and also because of his height. If Wilt played during Rodman's era their rebounding numbers would be about the same at their peak (from 15-18 rbg) but Rodman impresses more because of his height. Bill Russell would be third on the list.

Here's the link:

ESPN's Greatest Centers of All-Time

The top 6 are correct and can be shuffled around a bit, but Bill Walton at 7 is a terrible choice. There's too much bias in some of these voters with the older guys, especially with Russell. He got more first place votes than anyone yet finished third.

My list probably looks like this: Chamberlain, Abdul-Jabbar, Russell, Olajuwon, O'Neal, Malone, Robinson, Ewing, Cowens, Reed, Mikan

Wonder if he was drunk when he was thinking about this. Anyway, I would rather see Pippen just stay home. He had a great career. You have to give up the game sometime.

Also, is anyone really ready to take a chance not only on an old player, but someone who has been away from the game for three years?

Yeah, you're probably right about the coaches. I'd put Sutton in first, but that's just 'cause I'm still sour about that 2005 NCAA Championship. Good point about Dominique, but I think media has a lot to do with it. Dominique was one of the best players of his era, and considering the era he played in and what he accomplished he should have been a first-ballot Hall of Famer. But he did play for the Hawks (not the biggest team or the most well supported) and was underated as a player much of his career. To me the media already seems receptive to Mullin because of the weak class of eligible players and because of his fantastic college career. Not a first-ballot HOFer in my mind, but it looks like it may happen in his first year of eligibility.

Finally looks like Adrian Dantley will get in. Utah is finally retiring his jersey as well, at the request of Malone and Stockton.

Only disappointment is not to see Dennis Johnson as a finalist. It does not make sense to put Dumars in and not DJ. No Artis Gilmore either. Oh well.

ESPN

I think those who will be inducted are Phil Jackson, Chris Mullin, Adrian Dantley, Dick Vitale, and the 1966 Texas Western NCAA Championship team.

ESPN Article

I hope he's joking, cause at this point I don't think he has much left to offer other than leadership from the bench.

Ignore, another thread in the Bulls section.