Jermaine O'neal can be had!, Pacers, Lakers, and Twolves looking to deal with 4th team Options

[sport1016]

Breaking news from ESPN insider Chad Ford

Garnett to Lakers?
posted: Monday, June 25, 2007 | Feedback | Print Entry
filed under: Insider NBA

Are the Boston Celtics the key to moving Kevin Garnett to L.A.?

The Los Angeles Times reported Monday that the Lakers were in discussions with the Minnesota Timberwolves about a trade that would send Garnett to the Lakers. The trade also would involve the Indiana Pacers and possibly a fourth team.

After speaking with a league source, I think the deal has some legs, though it doesn't appear imminent.

According to the source, the key to completing the deal is finding a fourth team that would (a) take Jermaine O'Neal and ( send the Timberwolves enough pieces to complete the deal.

Despite reports to the contrary, the Celtics are balking at including the player the Timberwolves want in the deal -- Al Jefferson. According to a different league source, if Minnesota insists on Jefferson, it's a deal killer for Boston.

However, the deal could work without Jefferson, if Minnesota lowered its sights a little.

For instance, here's one scenario that could work:

The Wolves send Kevin Garnett and Marko Jaric to the Lakers.

The Lakers send Lamar Odom and Andrew Bynum to the Pacers and the No. 19 pick to the Wolves.

The Pacers send O'Neal to the Celtics.

The Celtics send the No. 5 pick, Theo Ratliff, Gerald Green and Sebastian Telfair to Minnesota.

Here's what that trade looks like in the Trade Machine, keeping in mind that there also will be draft picks involved.

The deal seems as though it probably would work for the Lakers, Pacers and Celtics.

The Lakers would get the guy they want to pair with Kobe in KG. Surely that would end any talk of a Kobe trade this summer.

The Pacers would get the two guys they want in exchange for O'Neal in Odom and Bynum. They've been waiting patiently for a straight-up swap with L.A. for weeks involving those three players (and a draft pick).

The Celtics would get another star quality player to pair with Paul Pierce without having to give up Jefferson.

But is it enough for Minnesota? That's the question.

The deal would give the Wolves more than $20 million in cap relief next summer and two additional picks in this year's draft. It also would give them two young prospects in Green and Telfair.

It might, however, fall a little short for Minnesota in the talent department. Perhaps the Wolves would bite if another young player or future draft pick were included.
ESPN Conversation

Here is how I interpret this: The Pacers want to move J Oneal for Bynum and Odom. Check. Lakers get to get KG for Odom, Bynum and #19. Check. And Minny gets to move KG, dump a contract, and dont have to take back Odom and Bynum, whom it is reported they arent thrilled with.

The celtics dont want to be in this deal bc minny wants al jefferson included. The Pacers, Lakers, and Twolves seem to really want to get this deal done. We can easily step in for the balking celtics.

Lakers Get: KG and Jaric

Pacers Get: Odom and Bynum

Bulls Get: Jermaine Oneal.

twolves Get: Lakers #19, Bulls #9, Ben Gordon, Chris Duhon, and.....

Ok here's the thing. The Celtics offered #5, Ratliff, Green, and Telfair. The wolves wanted #5, ratliff, and Jefferson. So our offer has to be better than the first one to have a chance, and competitve witht he second one to be given strong consideration by Mchale.

Despite what i said in another thread about the difficulty of including sign and trades with draft picks, they would probably have to pull out the "agree in principle to a trade" and include Noc/PJ or both.

I don't think Noc would agree to play there bc he's young and might not want to play his entire prime there, but PJ might just take a fat one year paycheck to mentor a young team.

So How about #9, Gordon, Duhon, Khryapa, 2008 first, and sign and trade PJ?

Du, Vic, and PJ's salary cap relief would add up to 11-13 million in cap relief, plus Gordon and #9 would create a good young core with craig smith, foye, #7, and #19.
Gordon (proven 20ppg scorer) and Duhon(proven rotation player-expiring contract) and Khryapa (expiring contract but could play regular minutes in minny) are surely more attractuve than Green (potential without production) and telfiar (falling out of the league and legal troubles)

Thats a deal i think the bulls accept to get JOneal and one the wolves would take. It gives them an exciting young team.

Foye
Gordon
ricky davis/hassell/khryapa
craig smith
#7
#9
and #19 to biuld around

bullz
hinrich/thabo/2nd rounder
thabo/Griffin/FA-there's tons of affordable SGs out there http://www.sportsline.com/nba/transactions...nts/position/SG
Deng/Noc
Oneal/TT/Noc
Wallace/Oneal

[SoxFan1]

Earlier, rumors had the Celts being the 4th team and giving up Al Jefferson and the #5 pick, but Ainge has declined. This is all just speculation, but we'll see what happens before draft night.

Paxson will be on CSN after the Cubs game, so everyone tune in to that.

[sport1016]

Yeah that's somehwere in Chad Ford's article.

That's the point. The Pacers, Lakers, and Twolves are ready to do this deal. If Paxson could step in while the celtics are hesitating to make a counter offer, we can take the celtics place

and get Jermaine Oneal at a pretty reasonable price.

He fits absolutely every criteria we are looking for:
-can play alongside either wallace or TT
-scores in the post
-can play uptempo
-terrific defensive player

wallace, oneal, deng, TT, Noc = best frontcourt in the league.......without a doubt

[Chicago Bulls Fr...]

Jermaine Oneal would be a great addition, his only problem is the durability. Will he be healthy for a full season + playoffs? If so then Im all for JO, problem is we don't know making the trade that much more risky.

[sport1016]

Yeah but for Gordon, Duhon, Khryapa, PJ, #9, and a 2008 first arent the injuries worth the risk?

I mean, this deal is basically Gordon and #9 plus cap relief for an all star PF/C, right?

And the best part of it all is that Gordon + #9 + cap relief is actually a better deal than what's on the table from the celitics right now.

[SoxFan1]

If that was the deal, I'd do it. I can live with Thabo starting at SG. He's going to improve, and he is a really good defender. Not to mention he's 4 inches taller than Gordon.

[ChicagoBullsMadi...]

where goes our perimeter shooting than? thabo is not yet THAT much of a threat, though he can make a few, maybe we should draft a REALLY good shooter in the draft than, like that guy from syaracuse, nichols with our 2nd round

[sport1016]

Last year we led the league in 3pt shooting, so we can afford to take a hit when exchanging it for such great production down low.

Plus thabo's 3pt shot will be very good next year. Just like Noc, he took him time to adjust to the nba 3pt line from europe. Though he stuggled early on, he shot it really well at the end of the year finishing at a very respetable 35.7%.

Plus Hinrich and Noc are pretty damn good 3pt shooters--Krich 41.5% last year and Noc 38.3%

[ZoomSlowik]

I SERIOUSLY doubt Minnesota would be happy with Gordon, #9, and a bunch of role players. They clearly want either a REALLY good young player or a handful of potential difference makers. Think about it: Al Jefferson is one of the most valuable commodities in the league, he just averaged 16-11-1.5 as a 22 year old. Even in the other deal they get a higher pick than ours, a high ceiling SF, and a metric ton of cap relief, and the reality of what is feasible is probably somewhere in between the two (even Ford says that, and that's basically the nature of negotiations).

For us, that probably means minimally Gordon, #9, Noc, and some contract filler, and quite possibly Tyrus or Thabo mixed in there. That just doesn't make much sense to me. The problem is that we're basically compensating the T-Wolves for Garnett while getting Jermaine O'Neal. There's a fair gap in ability and durability there.

Another issue to consider is that they probably don't want Gordon since they just drafted Randy Foye, who plays basically the same role. While he's obviously not as good, he's also cheaper and farther away from a payday, and one of the few good pieces outside of Garnett.

If it ends up being close to what was said a while ago due to desperation, than by all means go for it. Given their previous reluctance to deal KG and the few asking prices they've thrown around, I'm pretty skeptical though. Plus we gotta remember that McHale isn't exactly the sharpest GM in the league, I would think he's far more likely to ask for a 2003 price on KG and kill his last chance to move him for anything of value than to drop his demands and make a move that would actually help the future of the team.

[sport1016]

Because it is a 4 way deal, the twolves arent just getting Gordon, 9 and cap filler

But compared to Bostons deal...
-duhon, khryapa, and PJ's expiring contracts would be almost equal to ratliff's cap relief in the boston deal and unlike with ratliff they are getting 3 rotation players instead of possibly 1...at least for next year
-Gerald Green has potential, and he may be a well rated prospect, but he isn't worth more than Gordon. He may not be worth much less based on potential, but Gordon is a 21ppg scorer for a playoff tean in his 3rd year. Gerald Green couldnt get more than 22mpg for a terrible team decimated by injuries. Without Pierce/Tony Allen/Sczcerbiak, how could he not get more burn?

They are also getting #19 from lakers-which due to the strength of this draft is like getting a late lottery pick

and it is entirely possible to get that "other" piece from one of the other teams in the deal-

The bulls pay a fair price for oneal and Minny gets 9, 19, Gordon, Du, Vic, PJ, and something like brian cook or marquis daniels

thats better than the celtics offer, and bc they dont want to give up jefferson they dont have any more valuable assets than what they've already offered

[sport1016]

.............what about this?

Looking into my crystal ball, i can see mchale settling on a player and demanding him. For the celtics it was jefferson. For the bulls it would be, you guessed it, loul deng.

Would you give up Deng to get Jermaine Oneal?

What about a pretty friendly deal of Deng, Duhon, Vic, PJ and #9?

Youd still have noc, thabo, and TT, with thabo as the super sub-10mpg at pg, 15mpg at sg, another 10mpg at sf maybe too.

hinrich/thabo/2nd rounder
gordon/thabo
noc/thabo/griffin
oneal/TT/MLE FA
wallace/oneal

[BG7]

For us, that probably means minimally Gordon, #9, Noc, and some contract filler, and quite possibly Tyrus or Thabo mixed in there. That just doesn't make much sense to me. The problem is that we're basically compensating the T-Wolves for Garnett while getting Jermaine O'Neal. There's a fair gap in ability and durability there.

ZoomSlowik nailed it on the spot. While this whole three-way trade sounds very interesting, the trade is ultimately unfair for the Bulls. We are paying for KG, while getting JO. KG does not equal JO, so the Bulls are overpaying to get JO.

No deal. Unless Minnesota is willing to accept just Ben Gordon and the #9 pick. Which I doubt they would, because then they'd be getting Ben Gordon, #9 pick, and #19 pick in exchange for KG.

[ZoomSlowik]

Because it is a 4 way deal, the twolves arent just getting Gordon, 9 and cap filler

But compared to Bostons deal...
-duhon, khryapa, and PJ's expiring contracts would be almost equal to ratliff's cap relief in the boston deal and unlike with ratliff they are getting 3 rotation players instead of possibly 1...at least for next year
-Gerald Green has potential, and he may be a well rated prospect, but he isn't worth more than Gordon. He may not be worth much less based on potential, but Gordon is a 21ppg scorer for a playoff tean in his 3rd year. Gerald Green couldnt get more than 22mpg for a terrible team decimated by injuries. Without Pierce/Tony Allen/Sczcerbiak, how could he not get more burn?

They are also getting #19 from lakers-which due to the strength of this draft is like getting a late lottery pick

and it is entirely possible to get that "other" piece from one of the other teams in the deal-

The bulls pay a fair price for oneal and Minny gets 9, 19, Gordon, Du, Vic, PJ, and something like brian cook or marquis daniels

thats better than the celtics offer, and bc they dont want to give up jefferson they dont have any more valuable assets than what they've already offered

Green is a better fit than Gordon though, they need some forwards on that team. He could have done more, Rivers held him back a bit though. He inexplicably played Sczcerbiak over him when Wally was healthy, which doesn't make any sense at all unless it came down from the front office due to salary/tanking for a pick reasons, plus Pierce is obviously going to play over him as well. His minutes flucuated A LOT, he only got 10 a game in November and 17 in February (when they were relatively healthy) while he got 28 a game in January and almost 33 a game in April. Stick him on the T-Wolves where there is NO ONE that can conceivably block him he'll probably get 28 minutes and about 15 points a game.

You're WAY off on that last part, if they had to add more Minnesota would definitely take Rondo or Gomes, and that doesn't include the potential to add guys like West or Allen.

#19 isn't really a tipping point one way or the other, it's a bit too low to get a definitive difference maker. At that spot they're most likely going to be choosing from guys like Jason Smith, Josh McRoberts, Rodney Stuckey, Gabe Pruitt, and Sean Williams (clearly talented enough, but character issues). MAYBE someone like Thaddeus Young or Javaris Crittendon will be there, I wouldn't count on it though. To REALLY push Minnesota over the top they'll likely want another talented young player. That's the whole reason the 4th team comes into the picture, to add young pieces that will entice Minnesota to deal Garnett since the other teams don't have them.

.............what about this?

Looking into my crystal ball, i can see mchale settling on a player and demanding him. For the celtics it was jefferson. For the bulls it would be, you guessed it, loul deng.

Would you give up Deng to get Jermaine Oneal?

What about a pretty friendly deal of Deng, Duhon, Vic, PJ and #9?

Youd still have noc, thabo, and TT, with thabo as the super sub-10mpg at pg, 15mpg at sg, another 10mpg at sf maybe too.

hinrich/thabo/2nd rounder
gordon/thabo
noc/thabo/griffin
oneal/TT/MLE FA
wallace/oneal

No way. O'Neal isn't worth Deng, I wouldn't do that deal straight up. Deng is 5 years younger, considerably cheaper, doesn't have anywhere near the health problems, and gives you comparable scoring at a better shooting percentage.

[sport1016]

I do agree about keeping Deng, but I cant help but think including him would get the deal done. Mchale would love to have deng. Maybe not as much as al jefferson, but he'd rather have deng than anyone else on either ours or boston's rosters besides al.

So it comes down to this. Yes. I like Deng better than Oneal. But it comes down to the VORP (value of replacement player) This was talked about when we were looking at getting pau.

Next year, Nocioni and Sefolosha can give you at least 75% of what you got from deng. Jermaine Oneal is a hell of an upgrade over PJ brown.

I tend to agree with you about not giving up deng, but it has to be something for Paxson to consider

[ChicagoBullsMadi...]

it would be even stupider to give up deng for jermaine that it would have to give up brand for tyson. trust me, deng is goin to be a freaking star, no doubt, like a 25 point, 8 rebound type guy, who knows, maybe even more!