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Posted by: Chicago Bulls Franchise Jan 28 2008, 03:43 PM

Thoughts?

Posted by: Balta1701-B Jan 28 2008, 04:05 PM

If he can not only do a heckuva job helping http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_D._Brown recover from Katrina, but can also hang out in the building next door to me and use that perch to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_E._Brown, perhaps he can help our guys.

In all seriousness, why not? We've got 3 young, talented big guys, who are probably key to our future unless we're stupid and trade them at low values before they develop.

Posted by: ZoomSlowik Jan 28 2008, 04:23 PM

Eh, if we could get someone like Gasol for those guys I'd pack their bags, neither Noah or Tyrus exactly looks like a franchise-saving type big man. Who knows what you can really get for them, they both have more hype than their production/ability warrants at this point.

Getting a decent coach won't hurt matters, though I know basically nothing about this guy.

Posted by: Balta1701-B Jan 28 2008, 04:48 PM

It's interesting that you use the phrase "franchise-saving big man", because at least for the Grizzlies, while Pau Gasol has been a good player, he has been several steps away from Franchise-saving. The fans are turning on him more and more, he's hurt right now, and his numbers are starting to dip from the last couple seasons.

Posted by: ZoomSlowik Jan 28 2008, 07:14 PM

Of course he's not, at least not all by himself. You're not exactly going to get a Kevin Garnett or Tim Duncan for those guys, and teams don't tend to trade those guys. However, the Bulls proved the last couple of seasons that they don't need THAT good a player up front. The Bulls have a deeper roster than the Grizzlies and already have a better record with just about everything going wrong. Give them a post player that can actually score and suddenly things look quite a bit better (once Deng and Gordon get healthy of course).

I wouldn't exactly call the 19-9 he's averaging right now a "dip", and he's averaging 22.6 and 10.9 in January. I would bet an awful lot that neither Noah or Tyrus even sniffs those numbers any time soon (if ever), which is all that really matters in this case. If you can get that kind of sure-fire production from a guy that's still only 27 for a couple of maybes and a bench player like Noc as that one rumored deal suggests, that's quite a boost to your team.

Posted by: Chicago Bulls Franchise Jan 28 2008, 09:04 PM

I'd put my focus on Deandre Jordan who looks an awful lot like Dwight Howard (Seriously look at their shoulders and body type!) even though he looks to be a top 5-7 pick where we won't even get close to that unless we can trade away some of our talent to move in a spot that would grab him.

Posted by: Balta1701-B Jan 28 2008, 09:06 PM

Just going off of wins, if the season ended right now, the Bulls are in a 3 way tie that would put them picking between 7 and 9.

Posted by: ZoomSlowik Jan 28 2008, 09:33 PM

1) If he comes out, he's a lock to go in the top-5 and likely in the top-3. Athletic big men rarely drop in the draft. Beasley and Rose are the only guys likely to go ahead of him, and Gordon is really the only other guy that could barring an unusual front office decision.

2) While he does have a lot of potential, he's also absurdly raw. He's a terrible shooter (as shown by his sub-40 FT%), has no reliable post moves, and needs to get a lot stronger. He's only averaging 9.3 points, 6.8 rebounds and 1.2 blocks a game in college, that should give you an idea of how far he has to go. Barring major leaps forward it's going to be around 2 full seasons before he can make an impact. At least on the topic of development, he's closer to Andrew Bynum than Dwight Howard.

3) The last thing I take right now if I'm the Bulls is a big man that's a project. The biggest one is the Bulls need someone that can come in and contribute right away the way they've been playing most of this year. Another major one is the current logjam up front. Even if you get rid of Wallace, Smith, AND Nocioni you'd still have Tyrus, Noah and Gray splitting minutes with him. That wouldn't leave a whole lot of potential playing time the way things are set up right now, and I'd guess one of the biggest things Pax is looking for in a trade is a legit post-scorer. Lastly, the backcourt looks like a spot where they're going to need more bodies, with only Hinrich and Thabo under contract for next year thus far. There are a fair number of lottery choices that fit that bill (Rose, Gordon, Mayo, Budinger, Bayliss, Batum, plus possibly a few others).

Posted by: Chicago Bulls Franchise Jan 28 2008, 09:48 PM

So your telling me if Deandre Jordan falls to us at pick # whatever your going to pass just because we have guys like Tyrus who's a developmental player? I'm sorry but I don't think twice before I pick him. For one, he's a 7'0 and he's got the exact same frame as Dwight Howard and though young and raw, Dwight Howard was pretty much the same way coming into the draft except he had a higher cieling.

His numbers aren't spectacular but it would kill me to pass on a big man who has gobs of potential, and unlike Tyrus he is tall and strong with atleast some post moves and could probably handle the center position once he comes into the league.

Posted by: Balta1701-B Jan 28 2008, 10:00 PM

You're gonna have to give me some more details on what my options are. Say we wind up with the 7th pick. Is this guy the best option there, or is he dropping for a reason? I mean, look at a guy like Andrew Bynum. Great talent, took 2 years to develop, but is clearly on the way. But what are my other options?

Right now, I look at this roster and see us 5 deep in the 2 big slots for the next 2 years, unless either Smith or Wallace is moved...and after that, I see us 3 deep. I see us with 2 small forwards, 2 shooting guards, and 1 point guard with the other one still on hiatus until he finds a urinal.

Basically, what I'm saying is...we're fairly deep with young guys at every single slot...but we have concerns about each of them. None of them screams "This is one of the top 10 players in the NBA" at you...even our best player (Lu) can't seem to stay healthy right now. Our 2 outside scoring threats can't score from outside. Our 2 inside presences aren't playing much and aren't developing.

I think you could make a case for a selection of pretty much any position. You draft a small forward, you try a sign and trade with Lu. You decide that Gordon/Sef can't cut it, you let Gordon go and look for a shooting Guard. A PG is available? Well, Hinrich is average right now at best, and looks to be taking steps backwards instead of forwards. There's a big man available? Well, it's not like we've turned any of the other 2 we've drafted into stars yet. A guy is too raw? Hell, we're hardly even playing the guy who was a 3 year, 2x national champion at Florida at this point, who cares if a guy is raw.

Posted by: Chicago Bulls Franchise Jan 28 2008, 10:06 PM

Well more than likely OJ Mayo is going to be around by the time we pick (7-10) but if it was down to him or Mayo I'd take Jordan. If Jordan is gone then I go Mayo because he would be a good combo guard that would be primarily our shooting guard after we let Gordon go in a trade for whoever..

Posted by: steve9347 Jan 28 2008, 10:50 PM

Dude, Zoom, that's quite the controversial statement. If Gasol were a "franchise savior" the Grizzlies would be able to win with Rudy Gay over there to help.

Posted by: ZoomSlowik Jan 29 2008, 10:28 AM

You didn't read my response to Balta saying the EXACT same thing, did you?

Basically, I never said Gasol was, I don't expect to get a top-5 big man for Noah and/or Tyrus. However, I don't see Noah and Tyrus doing it either, so if I can get sure-fire production from a guy that's 27 instead of waiting two or three years for two guys that I really don't see being anywhere near as productive, I'd personally take it. A Hinrich-Gordon-Deng-Smith/Wallace-Gasol lineup is better and more balanced than the current Memphis lineup, and I'm a lot more confident in that crew competing than us trying to build from within. We've been doing that since Michael retired.

Posted by: ZoomSlowik Jan 29 2008, 10:50 AM

Depends on what else is there at our pick, but he'd be my last choice out of the "elite" players, and where we'd have to pick to get him I'd take Gordon. I'd rather not sit here in mediocrity for another two or three years watching the same crap while hoping that our guys pan out. If it turned out that he was unquestionably the best prospect available at our spot, I'd probably try to trade the pick, someone should give you pretty good value for that, or barring that trade one of Tyrus or Noah, though they'll likely have less value.

Potential isn't everything, there are plenty of guys that were supposed to be really good that have underacheived. Have you even SEEN him play? I'm going to go with no since you think he's a lot stronger and has post moves. He hasn't even been able to play well against other good COLLEGE players yet. He is basically a 7-foot Tyrus though, how's that worked out so far? Oh, right, it's all because of his playing time. Actually, even Tyrus was playing better in his one year in college.

He's not even close to Howard right now. Dwight was the consensus top prospect coming out of high school and was far more dominant at the time. He averaged 12 and 10 in the NBA right out of high school. Jordan was a borderline top-10 prospect in his class and he was there mostly because of his raw physical attributes. There's a big difference between having the same general size and most of the athleticism and actually having the ability to do something with it. Maybe in three years he can be something like Andrew Bynum or Dwight Howard (quite a difference there), but that sets them back quite a bit taking a risk at a position where they already have some depth, then we get to hear everyone beach for 3 years about his playing time.

If we're totally eradicating our depth up front and starting over, or we make a trade that makes us a competitive team right now (doesn't look terribly likely), then fine, take the risk since it'll be easier to swallow. But if this pick is supposed to be the one way we bolster our mediocre team for next year, you better take Beasley/Rose/Gordon instead. There is basically ZERO chance he's there at #7, so those are the guys you're going to be looking at instead of Jordan.

Posted by: Chicago Bulls Franchise Jan 29 2008, 03:37 PM

He's 240 pounds with the frame to put on soo much muscle, and he does have a few post moves and he's going to be a great player. If we ever picked him, it probably would be because we traded away guys like Tyrus or Noah..

Posted by: Balta1701-B Jan 29 2008, 04:02 PM

IF we're drafting in the top 5-7 of the draft again this year, you could say that about pretty much any position on our roster, because we have a guy drafted in the last 5 years at each of those positions.

Posted by: ZoomSlowik Jan 29 2008, 04:05 PM

He does have potential, but you could say the same thing about dozens of other big men over the last 10 years or so, and like many of them his skill level is seriously lacking at the moment. His performance right now doesn't exactly inspire confidence. Heck, he may be best served staying another year, though given where he'd go in the draft I doubt he would.

He may pan out, he may not, the bottom line is I'd rather not wait 3 years to find out when there are other decent options, especially given the makeup of our roster right now. Guys like Beasley, Rose, and Gordon don't exactly have low ceilings and all of them have shown quite a bit so far. You could throw Mayo, Green, Bayliss, Harnden possibly even Patrick Patterson or Brook Lopez in that group as well (can't decide if I like him or not). Jordan is the only big man that appears to have elite upside in this draft right now though (personally I like Speights a lot because of his size/athleticism/skill combo, but his ceiling is a bit less defined because he's not an athletic freak), so he'll go early regardless.

Posted by: Chicago Bulls Franchise Jan 29 2008, 04:18 PM

I just know that if we ever got Chase freaking Budinger I think I might kill myself.. That would be a definite suicide.

And yes, I would pick Beasley, or Rose over Jordan if they were ever available but I don't know about Eric Gordon. He seems to me like a bigger version of Ben Gordon?

Posted by: ZoomSlowik Jan 29 2008, 04:33 PM

I'm not a real big Budinger fan either. He has good size and leaping ability and a pretty good shot, but he doesn't strike me as a guy that's going to be able to drive in the NBA, or consistently stay in front of 2-guards. If by some miracle the choice is between him and Jordan, then okay, take Jordan. That's pretty unlikely though.

Eric is sort of like Ben, but better. They're both shoot-first 2-guards that are a bit under sized and don't have PG-level ball-handling ability, but Eric is much stronger, quicker, a better leaper (he's a pretty explosive dunker), and it looks like a better overall scorer. He'll take it inside a lot more, which should result in a higher field goal percentage and more free throws. His better athleticism and strength should mean he isn't as big a defensive liability as well. He should easily be a 20-point scorer, so unless he measures in at like 6'2" at the combine (listed at 6'4" or 6'5" in most places), he should be a pretty explosive scorer with the possibility of improving his ability to create for others as he develops.

Posted by: Balta1701-B Jan 29 2008, 04:41 PM

I would take a bigger version of Ben Gordon right now...as long as he could actually, you know, shoot. Ben Gordon has lost that ability. And he's never developed the ability to create anything by penetration, which is what he really ought to be working on.

Posted by: ZoomSlowik Jan 29 2008, 07:36 PM

I wouldn't go THAT far, his averages still stand at 19.6 points on 42.1% shooting and 38.5% from behind the arc. Granted that middle one isn't stellar, but it's not exactly unsightly for a guy that's mostly a jump shooter either. If anything Kirk has forgotten how to shoot, especially from behind the arc.

Shooting is definitely one of the other Gordon's strong suits, his percentages currently stand at 48.1/84.7/40.4 (and that's after a sub-par game against UConn), and driving is definitely a strength as well.

Posted by: Balta1701-B Jan 30 2008, 09:35 PM

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/basketball/bulls/766253,CST-SPT-bullnt30.article

Posted by: bulls91 Jan 31 2008, 06:49 PM

What about Hasheem Thabeet he is a massive tall guy that stands at 7'3" and has developed so much since he first stepped on to a college floor.
Offensively he has developed a nice jump hook that he threw up a few times in the Indiana game and can also get lots of offensive boards if he gains more weight and learns which comes with experience.
Defensively what else can he do better with a 7'3" frame then to have almost 4 blocks per game, which is outstanding in my mind it is what tyrus can do but is about 7 inches taller the tyrus he could use some work on his post and all around defenve but that will also come with experience as well.
You can't teach size and this guy has that plus some what do you think?

Posted by: Balta1701-B Jan 31 2008, 07:21 PM

Just wondering how it helps us to have a roster of 4 big guys sitting behind Wallace and Smith and trying to divy up 20 minutes a game instead of 3.

Posted by: ZoomSlowik Jan 31 2008, 07:47 PM

He's gotten better, but that's not saying much, and big men averaging 11 and 7 IN COLLEGE generally aren't the answer. He plays more than guys like Speights and Jordan that have somewhat comparable numbers as well. When you consider how much bigger he is than everyone he plays in college (Indiana's best big man is 6'8" and they don't really have anyone other than White) it's really not all that impressive. He didn't exactly dominate that game either, he finished with 12 points and 5 boards. He can just shoot over everyone in college and doesn't really have to worry about getting good position. In the NBA he'll actually have to get that position and block people out effectively, which is why he's projected to go so much lower than Jordan despite similarly drool-worthy physical attributes. Unless he gets a guarantee in the top-10 I could easily see him staying another year.

I've also got basically the same gripes with Thabeet as I do with Jordan, he's still considered a project and unless we trade at least two of Wallace/Smith/Noc (or trade one of the other young guys) there just aren't enough minutes to go around up front.

Posted by: Balta1701-B Jan 31 2008, 08:13 PM

I think the simple fact is that if we get a lottery pick this year, we're going to have to consider moving someone or moving the pick with someone, because even after Duhon and Khryapa walk this offseason, we're already at a point where there aren't enough minutes to go around, and adding in yet another top 10 pick (or, while we're at it, using the MLE again) will just keep making that fact worse. Either we try to bundle the pick with one of our guys (Gordon + pick in sign and trade?) or we move a couple of our guys outright. If we're still sitting around next year watching Thomas, Noah, Thabo, and a top 10 pick from the 2008 draft all try to divy up 25 minutes a game every time that everyone is healthy or the game is close, then we're really screwing up.

Posted by: ZoomSlowik Jan 31 2008, 09:07 PM

I would say it'd be easier/make more sense to take a perimeter player and deal one of those guys. We're not quite as deep at those spots so you really only have to move one guy to free up significant minutes, and it'd be a bit easier to get fairly decent value for Gordon or Kirk (more likely the former), or Nocioni as well, though he kind of splits his minutes between SF and PF. Up front even if you get rid of Smith and Noc you're probably stuck with Wallace unless you catch some GM at a weak moment, and even then you'll probably have to take a nasty contract back (though you may be able cut that guy or just leave him in-active). He's unfortunately going to play around 30 minutes a game as long as he's here, which would leave 66 minutes a game for Noah, Tyrus, Gray and any new guy to split. Even if you assume Gray maxes out at 6 a game that's only 20 a piece, and it'd probably be more like 25-25-10 or 30-20-10. The only guy I'd do that for is Beasley (he's probably a better SF but should be able to play the 4 next to Deng), and since he's a 30+ MPG guy that'd still crowd things an awful lot and might require dealing Tyrus or Noah (the former would make more sense there).

Edit- Actually, I guess if you unloaded Noc and Smith that's about 48 MPG that is off the roster (though those averages are a bit higher than reality due to injuries). Beasley could take the 10-15 MPG that Deng doesn't play at SF as well as around another 20 or so at PF, and it'd still leave around 10 more minutes for the other young bigs that you don't have now. You'd have to get pretty damn lucky to get him though, and he's really the only guy that can play the 3 and the 4 well early on.