IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

 
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Inconsistency Argument
eddog2
post May 12 2008, 09:43 PM
Post #1


Leading Scorer
********

Group: Members
Posts: 1,285
Joined: 5-July 06
Member No.: 193



QUOTE (steve9347 @ May 12 2008, 10:22 AM) *
Personally, I'm glad we didn't get D'Antoni. He should do really well in New York where the problem is already defense. Sure, he'd have been exciting, but I'm more concerned with eventually winning another championship than averaging 100+ points while giving up 110+.


I can't believe you put that picture as your signature. I'm going to stop being friends with you. Just b/c you have a man crush on Thabo doesn't mean you have to start hating on Gordon now. I remember when you were all over his balls his rookie year b/c he used to hit game winners. Now you think he sucks. He's our best offensive player. For a team that doesn't score enough or consistently enough I'd say that our problems lie elsewhere. It started with Paxson's inability to re-sign his best 2 players. The problem then multiplied with nagging player injuries to start the year, an aging Ben Wallace, and a horrible coaching staff relationship with players that lasted throughout the year. Then a subpar year by Kirk (not Gordon) didn't make things any better. Blame the starter not the reserve (and he still led the team in scoring as a reserve shooting 41% from the arc).

As for the team, Tyrus didn't do much to help the team. He should have had a breakout year or at least should have shown dramatic improvement in both his game and attitude which he did not. He jumper did improve slightly but he still has a ways to go. Then you have Noah who did play good but was a head case. So much so that he own teammates decided to suspend him for a game. That's pretty sad. Even Nocioni blew up.

The team need a coaching staff/coach they feel comfortable playing for, a coaching staff that makes every effort to develop its players, and a coach that establishes a consistent lineup where the best players play the most minutes. I'm hoping that whoever is hired will accomplish all 3 things.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
SoxFan1
post May 12 2008, 10:39 PM
Post #2


Superstar
***********

Group: Administrator

Posts: 3,736
Joined: 12-March 06
From: Chicago, IL
Member No.: 12



QUOTE (eddog2 @ May 12 2008, 10:52 PM) *
I can't believe you put that picture as your signature. I'm going to stop being friends with you. Just b/c you have a man crush on Thabo doesn't mean you have to start hating on Gordon now. I remember when you were all over his balls his rookie year b/c he used to hit game winners. Now you think he sucks. He's our best offensive player. For a team that doesn't score enough or consistently enough I'd say that our problems lie elsewhere. It started with Paxson's inability to re-sign his best 2 players. The problem then multiplied with nagging player injuries to start the year, an aging Ben Wallace, and a horrible coaching staff relationship with players that lasted throughout the year. Then a subpar year by Kirk (not Gordon) didn't make things any better. Blame the starter not the reserve (and he still led the team in scoring as a reserve shooting 41% from the arc).

You must be watching a different Ben Gordon than the rest of us. Gordon used to hit game winners? The only one I remember to be a game winner was that floater in the lane against the Knicks. He's the most un-clutch player in the league when it comes to last second shots now. 2:00 - :45 is his time. But once you put the ball in his hands when you need it most, you can guarantee a quadruple pump fake resulting in a steal and a lay-up for the opposition. Saying he is our best offensive player doesn't say much. Saying he is our most inconsistent player is more correct.

If you think Gordon didn't have a sub-par year, then there is obviously no convincing you otherwise. He averaged 3 points less than the previous season and that is in 1.2 less minutes. Wow, he led the team in scoring and 3 pt %. Whoop dee doo, he shoots more than anyone on our damn team. And don't get me started on his defense. He makes Sefolosha look like he has 8 arms.

As far as Hinrich, the only real drop off in his stats was in scoring. He has almost been in the 6's for assists and in the mid-teens in scoring. This year, obviously, he has a down year. He wasn't agressive, he was missing open shots, he started forcing it a bit once in a while, he tended to over-dribble, and he was getting into foul trouble a lot. Someone said it earlier, his defense took a hit when Riley/Wade called him out on those little hand-checks. Nonetheless, he is light years better than the turnstile known as Ben Gordon. If Hinrich averaged 4 points more a game, no one would be complaining at all.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Steve9347
post May 13 2008, 08:13 AM
Post #3


I'm fresh.
********

Group: Administrator

Posts: 1,300
Joined: 4-May 06
From: Lombard, IL
Member No.: 131



QUOTE (eddog2 @ May 12 2008, 10:52 PM) *
I can't believe you put that picture as your signature. I'm going to stop being friends with you. Just b/c you have a man crush on Thabo doesn't mean you have to start hating on Gordon now. I remember when you were all over his balls his rookie year b/c he used to hit game winners. Now you think he sucks. He's our best offensive player. For a team that doesn't score enough or consistently enough I'd say that our problems lie elsewhere. It started with Paxson's inability to re-sign his best 2 players. The problem then multiplied with nagging player injuries to start the year, an aging Ben Wallace, and a horrible coaching staff relationship with players that lasted throughout the year. Then a subpar year by Kirk (not Gordon) didn't make things any better. Blame the starter not the reserve (and he still led the team in scoring as a reserve shooting 41% from the arc).

As for the team, Tyrus didn't do much to help the team. He should have had a breakout year or at least should have shown dramatic improvement in both his game and attitude which he did not. He jumper did improve slightly but he still has a ways to go. Then you have Noah who did play good but was a head case. So much so that he own teammates decided to suspend him for a game. That's pretty sad. Even Nocioni blew up.

The team need a coaching staff/coach they feel comfortable playing for, a coaching staff that makes every effort to develop its players, and a coach that establishes a consistent lineup where the best players play the most minutes. I'm hoping that whoever is hired will accomplish all 3 things.

First of all, Edwin. It says "we suck," not "I suck" referring to Ben Gordon. The entire team sucked last year, and this pays tribute to that disaster of a season.

As for Gordon, he pisses me off, but with any sort of inside presence his game would blow up, we all know that.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Chicago Bulls Fr...
post May 13 2008, 07:19 PM
Post #4


Superstar
***********

Group: Members
Posts: 3,150
Joined: 20-March 06
Member No.: 73



QUOTE (SoxFan1 @ May 12 2008, 11:48 PM) *
You must be watching a different Ben Gordon than the rest of us. Gordon used to hit game winners? The only one I remember to be a game winner was that floater in the lane against the Knicks. He's the most un-clutch player in the league when it comes to last second shots now. 2:00 - :45 is his time. But once you put the ball in his hands when you need it most, you can guarantee a quadruple pump fake resulting in a steal and a lay-up for the opposition. Saying he is our best offensive player doesn't say much. Saying he is our most inconsistent player is more correct.

If you think Gordon didn't have a sub-par year, then there is obviously no convincing you otherwise. He averaged 3 points less than the previous season and that is in 1.2 less minutes. Wow, he led the team in scoring and 3 pt %. Whoop dee doo, he shoots more than anyone on our damn team. And don't get me started on his defense. He makes Sefolosha look like he has 8 arms.

As far as Hinrich, the only real drop off in his stats was in scoring. He has almost been in the 6's for assists and in the mid-teens in scoring. This year, obviously, he has a down year. He wasn't agressive, he was missing open shots, he started forcing it a bit once in a while, he tended to over-dribble, and he was getting into foul trouble a lot. Someone said it earlier, his defense took a hit when Riley/Wade called him out on those little hand-checks. Nonetheless, he is light years better than the turnstile known as Ben Gordon. If Hinrich averaged 4 points more a game, no one would be complaining at all.


Just to nit pick a bit, Kirk's shot selection was horrendous this year and it showed in his shooting %.. He also tends to overdribble for no reason at all and he likes to pass up a layup when he is the paint.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
eddog2
post May 13 2008, 08:05 PM
Post #5


Leading Scorer
********

Group: Members
Posts: 1,285
Joined: 5-July 06
Member No.: 193



QUOTE (SoxFan1 @ May 12 2008, 11:48 PM) *
You must be watching a different Ben Gordon than the rest of us. Gordon used to hit game winners? The only one I remember to be a game winner was that floater in the lane against the Knicks. He's the most un-clutch player in the league when it comes to last second shots now. 2:00 - :45 is his time. But once you put the ball in his hands when you need it most, you can guarantee a quadruple pump fake resulting in a steal and a lay-up for the opposition. Saying he is our best offensive player doesn't say much. Saying he is our most inconsistent player is more correct.
If you think Gordon didn't have a sub-par year, then there is obviously no convincing you otherwise. He averaged 3 points less than the previous season and that is in 1.2 less minutes. Wow, he led the team in scoring and 3 pt %. Whoop dee doo, he shoots more than anyone on our damn team. And don't get me started on his defense. He makes Sefolosha look like he has 8 arms.

As far as Hinrich, the only real drop off in his stats was in scoring. He has almost been in the 6's for assists and in the mid-teens in scoring. This year, obviously, he has a down year. He wasn't agressive, he was missing open shots, he started forcing it a bit once in a while, he tended to over-dribble, and he was getting into foul trouble a lot. Someone said it earlier, his defense took a hit when Riley/Wade called him out on those little hand-checks. Nonetheless, he is light years better than the turnstile known as Ben Gordon. If Hinrich averaged 4 points more a game, no one would be complaining at all.


The Kirk lover responds. Go figure. I bolded what you should be saying about Kirk. Kirk can score 20 ppg one night and then shoot 1-10 the next night. He'll get 11 assists one night and 3 the next. He's the most inconsistent player on our team. He defense was good but never good enough to earn all the praise he got. Anyway, Gordon's D is bad. It does leave a lot to be desired but he's light years ahead of any scorer on our team. As for Kirk averaging 4 more points per game, I don't care what he averages I just want him to shoot a better percentage and hit his open 3's. He's the point guard. He's the decision maker. And from what I see he doesn't make good decision. Gordon's in there to score. Kirk's in there to create plays and opportunities for others and when needed to take his man off the dribble or hit open J's. He should not be trying to be Chris Paul with the stop and pop b/c that's the most inconsistent part of his game. I want Kirk to get back up to 40% from the arc. That would make me happy. As for Gordon he doesn't have to get there b/c he's always been there.

And with respect to the game winners, Gordon has something like 10+ 10 or more point 4th quarters his rookie year (2nd only behind Kobe I believe). I'd take a player with that potential on my team any night. When we get a real PG or a true PF that can pass you'll all be happy that we didn't get rid of Gordon. Or when/if Gordon goes to another team and averages 25 points per game I don't want to hear all you num nuts saying man we shouldn't have traded him b/c most of you probably supported the Tyson trade which made me sick to my stomach a the time and it still does.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
SoxFan1
post May 13 2008, 09:24 PM
Post #6


Superstar
***********

Group: Administrator

Posts: 3,736
Joined: 12-March 06
From: Chicago, IL
Member No.: 12



QUOTE (eddog2 @ May 13 2008, 09:14 PM) *
The Kirk lover responds. Go figure. I bolded what you should be saying about Kirk. Kirk can score 20 ppg one night and then shoot 1-10 the next night. He'll get 11 assists one night and 3 the next. He's the most inconsistent player on our team. He defense was good but never good enough to earn all the praise he got. Anyway, Gordon's D is bad. It does leave a lot to be desired but he's light years ahead of any scorer on our team. As for Kirk averaging 4 more points per game, I don't care what he averages I just want him to shoot a better percentage and hit his open 3's. He's the point guard. He's the decision maker. And from what I see he doesn't make good decision. Gordon's in there to score. Kirk's in there to create plays and opportunities for others and when needed to take his man off the dribble or hit open J's. He should not be trying to be Chris Paul with the stop and pop b/c that's the most inconsistent part of his game. I want Kirk to get back up to 40% from the arc. That would make me happy. As for Gordon he doesn't have to get there b/c he's always been there.

And with respect to the game winners, Gordon has something like 10+ 10 or more point 4th quarters his rookie year (2nd only behind Kobe I believe). I'd take a player with that potential on my team any night. When we get a real PG or a true PF that can pass you'll all be happy that we didn't get rid of Gordon. Or when/if Gordon goes to another team and averages 25 points per game I don't want to hear all you num nuts saying man we shouldn't have traded him b/c most of you probably supported the Tyson trade which made me sick to my stomach a the time and it still does.

Right, "consistent". Some of the monsters that the elite scorer put up:

11/6 vs LAC 4/18 15 points
11/20 @ DEN 2/14 6 points (20 on 8-17 2 days earlier)
11/24 @ NYK 4/17 13 points
12/3 vs DAL 4/16 10 points (34 on 13-21 shooting 2 days earlier)
12/7 @ DET 3/10 11 points
12/8 vs BOS 5/20 13 points (27 on 12-19 shooting 3 days later)
12/18 vs LAL 3/9 8 points
1/13 @ ATL 3/13 6 points
2/24 @ HOU 2/11 5 points (37 on 12-19 shooting 3 days earlier)
2/29 vs WAS 2/9 6 points
3/20 vs SAC 5/16 12 points
3/26 @ PHI 3/12 12 points
3/29 vs MIL 2/10 11 points
4/8 @ MIA 4/13 16 points

These numbers coming from the teams best/first scoring option. That's a lot of off shooting nights for a guy that's consistent, and a few pretty nice variations in there. Ben Gordon isn't a rookie anymore. He's the most inconsistent player on the Bulls, by far.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
TeaLeafReaderII
post May 13 2008, 10:49 PM
Post #7


Skills Competitor
*********

Group: Forum Moderator

Posts: 1,675
Joined: 14-March 06
Member No.: 52



so you're saying Gordon was great the other 83% of the season? i don't think thats too bad smile.gif

Really though, the only thing consistant this year was the Bull's ability to frustrate fans. I think that is partly the coaches fault. No rotations were established. Guys didn't know if they were playing 20 or 40 minutes.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
SoxFan1
post May 13 2008, 11:19 PM
Post #8


Superstar
***********

Group: Administrator

Posts: 3,736
Joined: 12-March 06
From: Chicago, IL
Member No.: 12



QUOTE (TeaLeafReaderII @ May 13 2008, 11:58 PM) *
so you're saying Gordon was great the other 83% of the season? i don't think thats too bad smile.gif

Nope, those were just his terrible shooting nights where he didn't score much. He had other terrible shooting nights where he hit some 3's/FT's to add to his point total. This was just a sample size. The main thing to look at is when he has spiffy games after huge games. Real consistent.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
ZoomSlowik
post May 13 2008, 11:21 PM
Post #9


All-Star
**********

Group: Administrator

Posts: 2,704
Joined: 14-March 06
Member No.: 43



QUOTE (TeaLeafReaderII @ May 13 2008, 11:58 PM) *
so you're saying Gordon was great the other 83% of the season? i don't think thats too bad smile.gif

Really though, the only thing consistant this year was the Bull's ability to frustrate fans. I think that is partly the coaches fault. No rotations were established. Guys didn't know if they were playing 20 or 40 minutes.


Eh, that probably contributed, but I personally think the bigger one is that none of our guys can create decent shots with any kind of regularity and our offense essentially revolves around jumpshooting. It's hard to be consistent when you shoot like 43% as a team, they need to find some way to balance out all of the jumpers from Hinrich, Gordon and Hughes. Toss in a lot of young guys, a few of which don't give you consistent effort, and you have problems.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Steve9347
post May 14 2008, 08:19 AM
Post #10


I'm fresh.
********

Group: Administrator

Posts: 1,300
Joined: 4-May 06
From: Lombard, IL
Member No.: 131



I think you turds need to realize that both Gordon and Hinrich are inconsistent and they both suck.

However, Gordon has much more talent and has the best hope of salvaging a career as a star.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
ZoomSlowik
post May 14 2008, 10:05 AM
Post #11


All-Star
**********

Group: Administrator

Posts: 2,704
Joined: 14-March 06
Member No.: 43



QUOTE (steve9347 @ May 14 2008, 09:28 AM) *
I think you turds need to realize that both Gordon and Hinrich are inconsistent and they both suck.

However, Gordon has much more talent and has the best hope of salvaging a career as a star.


That's essentially what I said before. biggrin.gif

http://www.talkbulls.com/forums/index.php?...ost&p=35109

I don't really see "star" in either of their futures though. Neither player penetrates enough or finishes well enough to really take that next step as a player, I would say last year's stats are essentially the best we'll ever see from either of them (which isn't exactly a bad thing if they can repeat it mind you, though the percentages seem a bit high for both of them). It's hard to consistently be a good #1 option when so few of your shots are near the basket and you're not drawing that many fouls in the process, those higher percentage shots and FT's bail you out quite a bit when your jumper isn't falling. Granted some guys pull it off and Gordon is clearly an elite shooter, but they're converting on their drives quite a bit more than Gordon, and most of them are fringe stars like Joe Johnson, Jason Richardson and Josh Howard anyways. Not only is Gordon in the bottom 5 in the league in attempts in the basket area, he's 10th from the bottom in shooting percentage when he gets there. That's hard to improve too, which means his only real avenue is getting a bunch more FT attempts, meaning he'd still have to drive a lot more and go away from his strengths as a jumpshooter.

I really don't see any quick answers for this roster, every player on the team is flawed in some way that hurts their chances of being a true stud. The closest thing IMO is finding a way to bring in someone like Elton Brand to give the offense another dimension, and even that might cost some of the pieces you need around him (which is why I was so pissed when we couldn't close the deal on Gasol). About our only hope on the roster is Deng or Tyrus breaking out, and we've been saying that for about 2 years...
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
eddog2
post May 14 2008, 08:07 PM
Post #12


Leading Scorer
********

Group: Members
Posts: 1,285
Joined: 5-July 06
Member No.: 193



QUOTE (ZoomSlowik @ May 14 2008, 11:14 AM) *
That's essentially what I said before. biggrin.gif

http://www.talkbulls.com/forums/index.php?...ost&p=35109

I don't really see "star" in either of their futures though. Neither player penetrates enough or finishes well enough to really take that next step as a player, I would say last year's stats are essentially the best we'll ever see from either of them (which isn't exactly a bad thing if they can repeat it mind you, though the percentages seem a bit high for both of them). It's hard to consistently be a good #1 option when so few of your shots are near the basket and you're not drawing that many fouls in the process, those higher percentage shots and FT's bail you out quite a bit when your jumper isn't falling. Granted some guys pull it off and Gordon is clearly an elite shooter, but they're converting on their drives quite a bit more than Gordon, and most of them are fringe stars like Joe Johnson, Jason Richardson and Josh Howard anyways. Not only is Gordon in the bottom 5 in the league in attempts in the basket area, he's 10th from the bottom in shooting percentage when he gets there. That's hard to improve too, which means his only real avenue is getting a bunch more FT attempts, meaning he'd still have to drive a lot more and go away from his strengths as a jumpshooter.

I really don't see any quick answers for this roster, every player on the team is flawed in some way that hurts their chances of being a true stud. The closest thing IMO is finding a way to bring in someone like Elton Brand to give the offense another dimension, and even that might cost some of the pieces you need around him (which is why I was so pissed when we couldn't close the deal on Gasol). About our only hope on the roster is Deng or Tyrus breaking out, and we've been saying that for about 2 years...


Is that a joke? I could see that being the case for Hinrich but I think Gordon will average more than 21.4 ppg at some point in the future. It might not be with the Bulls but he's a scorer much like Kevin Martin. Sure he lacks size but he'll never lose that shooting touch. He'll eventually end up in a better offensive system and he'll average over 24 ppg.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Chicago Bulls Fr...
post May 14 2008, 08:12 PM
Post #13


Superstar
***********

Group: Members
Posts: 3,150
Joined: 20-March 06
Member No.: 73



QUOTE (eddog2 @ May 14 2008, 09:16 PM) *
Is that a joke? I could see that being the case for Hinrich but I think Gordon will average more than 21.4 ppg at some point in the future. It might not be with the Bulls but he's a scorer much like Kevin Martin. Sure he lacks size but he'll never lose that shooting touch. He'll eventually end up in a better offensive system and he'll average over 24 ppg.


But Kevin Martin is 6 inches taller, and he's more efficient because he gets to the line more often. K-mart is one of the most underrated players in this league because he plays for the Kings which is a shame.. He'll get alot more attention if he makes some noise in the playoffs next year.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
ZoomSlowik
post May 14 2008, 08:27 PM
Post #14


All-Star
**********

Group: Administrator

Posts: 2,704
Joined: 14-March 06
Member No.: 43



QUOTE (eddog2 @ May 14 2008, 09:16 PM) *
Is that a joke? I could see that being the case for Hinrich but I think Gordon will average more than 21.4 ppg at some point in the future. It might not be with the Bulls but he's a scorer much like Kevin Martin. Sure he lacks size but he'll never lose that shooting touch. He'll eventually end up in a better offensive system and he'll average over 24 ppg.


As CBF said, Martin is a lot taller (which is important, it's easier for him to get shots off, though officially it's 4 inches if you believe the rosters) and shoots several more FT's a game. He also shot over 60% in the immediate basket area this past season, compared to 47.5% for Gordon. That's a lot of points you're leaving on the table there. The bottom line is Gordon is one of the worst finishers in the league inside, even Hinrich hit 55% inside and he's far from great as well. Unless Gordon somehow gets better on the drive or somehow goes somewhere where he gets close to 20 shots a game (and I can't think of a whole lot of places where he'd get more opportunities than the Bulls where he got about 15 this year, and that team would have to not care about D a whole lot to stick him out there that long) he's going to peak somewhere in the low 20's. Ideally he's Leandro Barbosa or a 6'3" Rashard Lewis, the third option (MAYBE 2nd, though the supporting cast would have to be pretty good) on a good team that hits the open shots when teams collapse on a better player. Of course on the Bulls he has to be more than that because so many of their guys can't create their own shot. It's not just Gordon either, Deng looked a lot more like that as well, and Hinrich looked more like a fringe starter this year.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 28th March 2024 - 11:50 AM
Home | Home | Home | Home | Home