Okay so Milicic reportedly signed with Memphis for 3 years $21 million. I pose the question of whether or not the Bulls paying Nocioni roughly the same (actually slightly more) for his $5 year $38 million. That averages to $7.6 million a season whereas Darko reportedly will be making $7. No to mention Nocioni isn't a starter and is a SF. The only positions in this league were a bench guy could demand starters money are PF/C and PG. Other than that SF's are a dime a dozen.

I don't agree with the practice but it is what it is.

I question whether or not we would have been better off making a strong push to Milicic instead of resigning Nocioni. It just would seem that for the same money I'd much rather have Darko at the 4/5 and play Tyrus at 3/4 than have Nocioni creating a log jam at 3/4 when we already have Deng & Tyrus. I think Darko could have solidified our low post needs for at least the next 3 years and possibly longer if he were willing to sign a 5 year deal.

It is pretty frustrating that instead, Memphis forced us to overpay for Nocioni while also getting the player that I really wanted in free agency.

Darko/Gasol
Gasol/Warrick/Swift
Gay/Miller
Miller/Kinsey
Conley/Stoudamire/Lowry

That is going to be a pretty good lineup. Good outside shooting with Gay/Miller. Good PG play. Good low post game with Darko/Gasol. Athleticism with Gay/Warrick/Swift. They are going to be very good in a couple of season if not pushing for the playoffs this year.

Memphis really kicked our ass this offseason. The only thing that would make it much worse would be for us to trade Deng, Tyrus, and Gordon for Gasol.

That's probably what they are praying for after outplaying Paxson so far this offseason.

They would probably be better in the long run if they gave up Gasol for Tyrus, Noah, & Gordon. However, although many people here (including yourself) would probably love that deal, I don't think it would make us a for sure title team.

However, it would lead to Memphis becoming one of the elite teams in the West in the next few years.

Darko/Noah
Noah/Tyrus
Gay/Tyrus
Miller/Gordon (?)
Conley/Lowry

That's one super young team with great outside shooting, great defensive players, and explosive athletes that can run on both ends of the court.

Let's say we did deal Tyrus/Noah/Gordon for Gasol. Meaning, Gasol and Thabo immediately replace PJ and Gordon.

Pau + Thabo = 24.1 ppg, 11.7 rpg combined (07)
PJ + Gordon = 26.5 ppg, 8.5 rpg combined (07)

When you take into account the additional numbers Thabo will put it with more playing time and consisten starts, it would undoubtedly be more points and far more rebounds, not to mention much better D at the SG pos, and more blocks from our bigs.

Oddly enough, I am beginning to think that I wouldn't make that trade, but the Grizz would. A few weeks ago, I would have been all for that trade, but I think I'd like to give it another year (or at least until the trade deadline) to decide whether we really need to give up all that for a low-post scorer.

Anyway, you're right that the Grizzlies' lineup is shaping up pretty well right now with the addition of Conley, Darko, and a fully healthy Pau next year. People in Memphis are being cautiously optimistic right now about Darko (as they should), but I really do think he's gonna pay off big time for them.

The way Tyrus has been developing, I don't think you can give them Gordon and Tyrus anymore. Tyrus looks a lot more likely to be pretty good than he did a year ago, and to make the money work you'd still have to give up Noc as well.

Memphis probably should have jumped on it when we offered basically that same package you guys mentioned. Instead they blew it demanding Deng and more, so they probably missed their chance.

As for Noc, they would have had to out-right him first to clear enough money, I don't think they'd have done that unless they KNEW they'd get Darko. They probably thought they'd have a shot at him with the MLE (not too bright to be honest) and didn't want to GIVE away Noc, and Memphis came to them with that first. Realistically, that's probably why they threw that kind of money at Darko, since they went after Nocioni first and fell short (either that or their management is FAR more crafty than I think, basically eliminating a major competitor).

I'd guess the Bulls still win around 20 more games than Memphis does this year.

You also have to take into account the fact that the Bulls could sign Nocioni without giving up anything else, and because of salary cap restrictions, they would have had to been able to negotitate with Milicic while working out a palatable sign and trade deal with Orlando. It isn't nearly as simple as the fact that the contract money is close to the samething. That is a gross misgeneralization of the facts here.

It would have been pretty close if they would have out-righted him. Their cap figure was $47 mil without counting Noc's contract or the draft picks. Add Darko's $7 mil and you're at $53 mil, still around $2 mil under the new cap total, which I believe is enough to cover Noah...

And it also leaves roster spots open.

What's the difference b/t letting Nocioni walk and signing Darko instead of signing Nocioni?

That's still adds up to 1 player. We didn't have to keep Nocioni. I'm sure San Antonio would also have taken Nocioni in a sign and trade for the draft rights to Scola. Not that I'd for sure take Scola over Nocioni but he'd seem to fit our needs better.

Darko > Noc & Smith...

I want to know how the Bulls were going to offer Darko 7 million. They couldn't. Even if Noc wasn't here they wouldn't have had the ability to do that. I would have loved to get Darko but the reality is he was gonna get more than the MLE and that meant the Bulls weren't gonna be able to land him.

Ok, so there seems to be 2 sides here...would the Bulls have been able to offer more than the MLE if they did not resign Nocioni or not? Otherwise this whole discussion is moot.

I didn't think you could offer the MLE or use the MLE along with caproom. I thought the whole point of the exception was for teams right up against the cap.

u cant add cap room to the mle

bc then you'd have players with partial salaries counting agst the cap. Then every team would use its MLE on a big deal, like Rashard Lewis could have 5 million less of his salary agst the cap so the magic couldve had a shot to keep darko.

Cant do it

The Bulls could have made a deal to a team under the cap and gotten a trade kicker (which would have been like a 7 mill excemption) but it would have been hard considering I don't think we would have been able to do any sort of sign and trade with Orlando.

I still think this is moot...Memphis couldn't have gotten both of them and I'll still take Noc and Smith over Darco simply because I know what to expect out of Noc and I think people really underestimate his value (I still would have loved Darco and would have had no problem if the Bulls had a realistic way to get under the cap to get him).

I think on paper I'll take Noc and Smith over Darko as well, for a number of reasons. First, I'm not concerned about JR having to pay the luxury tax. Second, I'm just not as high on Darko as others here seem to be: IMO, if people were judging him to still be a potential star, and not just a role player, I don't think the Magic would have let him go, and he'd certainly be signing for more than $7 mil. And third, the Bulls have enough youth. Noc and Smith are much more of an experienced presence. Both of them have seen action repeatedly in the playoffs. And a stabilizing, playoff-experienced presence is still going to be important on this team next year, where hopefully it ends up being Deng, Gordon, and Thomas who are the key pieces carrying us.

in the end it was a good signing of noc. i now know that pax wouldnt have made this signing if it would affect signing BG or luol.

You wanted to know so I'll explain it to you. The Bulls salary was at $46.78 million before the Nocioni signing. That included Sweetney's qualifying offer of $3.654. Even though Nocioni was a free agent his salary still counted against the cap. I believe he made around $5 million last year although that number may be slightly off. So even though Nocioni was a free agent, that $5 million still counted against our cap. Also, if another team offered him a new contract, that number would count against our cap instead of the $5 million until we either re-signed Nocioni or until we renounced his qualifying offer.

So the Bulls could have released Sweetney (who they have no intention of playing put probably think his expiring contract will be valuable in trade talks next year), and they could have released Nocioni. That would have cleared up at least $8 million probably closer to $9.

$46.78 - $8 million = $39.78 + the rookie contracts which probably total $3.5 million and the Bulls would have a total salary of $43.28 which is $11.72 million under the cap. The Bulls could have pulled it off they just didn't want to.

But enough dwelling on the what if. I'm happy with the team going into next year.


Good website that talks about the cap.

http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#41

28. I just saw that a team signed a player for more money than it has under the cap. It was another team's free agent, so the Larry Bird exception wasn't used. What gives?

If one of the other exceptions wasn't used, it may just be the way the deal was reported. Only the first season's salary must fit under the cap, but signings are often reported using the total salary for the entire contract. For example, if a team is $10 million under the cap, they can sign a player to, say, a five-year contract for $10 million, $10.5 million, $11 million, $11.5 million and $12 million, respectively, for the five seasons. The deal then gets reported as five years for $55 million. But the first year salary is what counts, and it fits perfectly.

29. Can a team sign all the free agents it wants (up to the cap limit) and THEN re-sign its own free agents using the Bird exception?

Yes, but there's a restriction. A team's free agents continue to count as team salary (against the salary cap). This charge is called the "free agent amount." So there may not be enough money under the cap to sign another team's free agent, because the team's own free agents are taking up all their cap room.


A restricted free agent counts against his team's salary cap by the greatest of:

His free agent amount (as defined in the table above)

The amount of his qualifying offer (see question number 36)

The first year salary from any offer sheet the player signs with another team (see question number 36)


31. Why do free agents continue to count against a team's cap?

It closes another loophole. Teams otherwise would be able to sign other teams' free agents using their cap room, and then turn their attention to their own free agents using the Bird exceptions. This rule restricts their ability to do that. It doesn't close this loophole completely -- for example, in 2005 Michael Redd's free agent amount was $6 million, even though the Bucks intended to re-sign him for the maximum salary. By waiting to sign Redd last, the Bucks were able to take advantage of the difference by signing Bobby Simmons. Had they signed Redd first, they would have had no cap room to sign Simmons.

32. When do free agents stop counting against the team's cap?

When any one of the following three things happen:
The player signs a new contract with the same team. When this happens, the player's effect on his team's team salary is based on his new salary.

The player signs with a different team. As soon as this happens, the player becomes the new team's problem, and his salary no longer counts against his old team.

The team renounces the player. (See question number 33)

Damn, I think we get the point... jk... Seriously, thanks for posting that info. I definitely learned a new thing or two about salary cap

Yeah, my bad about the 15 posts in a row. The internet connection where I'm staying is bad. I've been using someone elses wireless internet. Anyway, each time I push sent yesterday it went to an error page like I had lost connection. I figured that the information didn't post so I kept trying.

Oh, I know. I was just messing with ya. Hell, the same thing happened to me in some other thread. I think the site was a little finicky last night b/c I know more than 1 person had trouble with pages loading, etc.

Ya, I am running massive queries in the background on the main server (the queries are taking up something like 60% of the server power) which means we are running on this thing with less than one leg (it will be that way until the Soxtalk work is complete early on this week).

They couldn't. You can go over the cap to resign your own guys, but not to sign other teams guys. Either Darko had to take the MLE or the Bulls could not sign him. The only other way we could have done this is if Orlando was interested in a sign and trade for Nocioni. The Bulls were not going to be able to sign Darko Milicic to a free agent contract at 3 years $21 million by themselves. You have to understand the salary cap rules in these situations before getting all upset about things that couldn't happen in the first place.

Well it has been pointed out that the Bulls could have, if they opted to withdraw themselves from Nocioni (kind of like what Orlando did with Darko in the first place) as that (combined with doing the same for Sweetney) would have given the Bulls ~ 11 million in cap room.

So I guess the question is whether Darko is better than Nocioni/JoeSmith. It is also important to bring up that the Bulls would have had to let Nocioni go when they didn't actually know for sure whether they could get Darko (which would be a risky proposition). Of course I'm sure if they wanted to take this approach they could have went hard for Darko immediately and gotten a verbal and than withdrew anything with Noc (not the contract, but just withdrew his rights making him a UFA).

I really have a hard time understanding all the sentiments sentiments on this board.

What has Darko done to warrant so much love?? Forget the fact that he was a #2 pick. Nocioni >>> Darko. How can you all forget about Noch's incredible passion and energy? He's a 15ppg player. In the playoffs, he's a beast (except for this season due to obvious reasons). He's a valuable player to the team. I wouldn't trade Noch for Darko anyday. Forget about need. We have Tyrus and Joakim to fill those shoes, and I am confident they will do so effectively.

APPRECIATE NOCH!

Oh, I appreciate Nocioni I just think we overpaid to keep him. We gave him starters money and he's a bench player except when we go small then he plays the 4. Not to mention he's a SF. SF bench players shouldn't be making starters money.

Anyway, I love Nocioni and I'm okay with him staying. I just think you underestimate how good Darko is going to be and how good he already is. He's not going to be the best big man in the league but that's not what we need. Darko's got and will continue to develop a sound low post game. Isn't that what everyone on this site including yourself think is what is best for this team? Anyway, I think Darko would have made more sense if we were going to pay either player $7 million. We can and will win without him but his low post scoring and defense would have made it easier.

Basically, what it comes down to is, would you rather pay 7 million for a really good starting PF or 7.6 million for a really good backup SF.

Sure it comes down to that... If you have both options equally easy, which the Bulls did not.

Sure it comes down to that... If you have both options equally easy, which the Bulls did not.

I agree, I'm not getting the love for Darko either. Noc, when healthy, has proven to be a versatile, hustle guy on both ends of the court and is one of the few Bulls that drives to the basket effectively.

I'd rather have Tyrus and Noah coming off the bench to wear teams down with their athleticism, youth, emotion and open court play vs Darko's game any day.

Your math is off, edog. we were at 46.8 million without even including nocioni's contract in any sense.

The rookie salaries were just under 3 million.

leaving us with about 6 million in cap space. not enough to sign darko

plus he's not all that great and our bench would never score without noch.

Did you even read my post? Was that $46.8 with Sweetney or without? Plus by dropping Nocioni all 7+ million would go to Darko. I added in the rookie salaries when I did my final calculation. Now the last line might be right but the first 2 of your post are wrong.

46.8 without considering ANY cap holds



Ben Wallace: 15.5
Kirk Hinrich: 11
Ben Gordon: 4,9
Trus Thomas: 3,6
Luol Deng: 3,3
Chris Duhon: 3,2
Victor Khryapa: 1,9
Thabo Sefalosha: 1.8
Adrian Griffin: 1.6

46.8

holds on the rookie contract: 3.0

49.8


your math was probably just slightly off. we had no chance at darko.