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TeaLeafReaderII
The Journal News reports on Ben Gordon wanting a new contract:


Gordon, 24, is about to embark on the final year of the four-year rookie contract he signed with the Bulls in 2004 after getting drafted out of Connecticut.

"The Bulls have an opportunity to extend my contract with them this summer," Gordon said yesterday. "So I’m hoping something gets done and I won’t have to wait another year to see what’s going to happen. I’ve done everything possible I could have done to help my team get to the playoffs, and I think it’s up to them right now to see if they want to make a long-term commitment."

"If you look at other players around the league that are doing things similar to what I’ve done in my past year and throughout my career, I just want to get that equal respect," said Gordon, who’ll become a restricted free agent after the upcoming season if he fails to sign an extension. "And that’s all it’s really about. The money I make is going to be more than I’ve ever made, so it really just boils down to getting your just due and your respect."
Balta1701-B
Ugh, I hate it when players start publicly equating respect with money.

That said...pay him anyway or trade him. As cheap as this team has been for the last 8 years and as much $ as they've raked in from selling out that stadium...no excuse not to go into luxury tax territory.
madisonsmadhouse
Does anyone know if there have been discussions between Ben and the Bulls? Obviously Luol is the #1 priority, but Ben is a key guy for this team.
SoxFan1
When Ben becomes a consistent scorer and loses his turnstile defense, he can THEN talk about respect.
TeaLeafReaderII
QUOTE (SoxFan1 @ Aug 27 2007, 02:17 PM) *
When Ben becomes a consistent scorer and loses his turnstile defense, he can THEN talk about respect.

those are areas he has dramatically improved upon since coming into the league... and there is no reason to believe they won't continue to improve.


I'm not a fan of negotiating through the media, but I think he can talk about respect as long as the team negotiating with him is offering him below market value...
Balta1701-B
QUOTE (TeaLeafReaderII @ Aug 27 2007, 02:30 PM) *
those are areas he has dramatically improved upon since coming into the league... and there is no reason to believe they won't continue to improve.
I'm not a fan of negotiating through the media, but I think he can talk about respect as long as the team negotiating with him is offering him below market value...

There is also absolutely nothing stopping the team from just letting him hit the RFA market and matching whatever offer is given to him if they can't come to an agreement.
eddog2
I predicted before the summer that the contract extension for Gordon could turn out to be very difficult.

This is just the start of what could become a very ugly process. Paxson just pay Gordon a good amount and get this over with. The last thing I need (and I can see happening) is for Paxson to low ball Gordon and upset him, then try and turn fans on Gordon, and ultimately trade away a disgruntled Gordon for less than what he's worth. I can see all three playing out. That's why I would rather pay Gordon something close to what he wants and get it over with. It's not like you would be overpaying a crappy player. Gordon has done nothing but work hard since coming to the Bulls and unlike some superstars, I don't see him changing that after he signs a big contract.

Get it done Paxson. Then sign Deng for something higher than what you signed Gordon to make Deng happy and to show him how much you respect him.
Balta1701-B
John Paxson has proven one thing to me over and over and over since he took this job; he is not an idiot. Just think about how many intelligent moves this guy has made, the trade for Deng, Front-loading these contracts to help with the luxury tax in a year or two, the deals with the Knicks, the moves in the draft that even I questioned at first until I started seeing the results...etc.

John Paxson will not be stupid enough to let Ben Gordon walk for nothing, nor will he be stupid enough to deal Ben Gordon for less than he's worth. Other teams have repeatedly tried to low-ball us in asking for Gordon and Deng for something, Pax has been smart enough to laugh those off because he knows what kind of talent he has.

If Gordon wants a max contract...we may well have to wait to see if anyone else offers that to him and then match it. But there is no reason at all why we can't do exactly that.
madisonsmadhouse
I am going to post this, because it doesn't happen very often.

I agree 100% Balta cheers.gif
rangercal
QUOTE (madisonsmadhouse @ Aug 28 2007, 04:05 PM) *
I am going to post this, because it doesn't happen very often.

I agree 100% Balta cheers.gif

I agree with Balta also. Great insight.
sport1016
The fact that gordon cant defend his own position will keep him from deng-type money. That and the fact that thabo can.
GreatScott82
Kobe Bryant can officially opt out of his contract after this season (im pretty sure?)... it makes sense NOT to sign him to a long term deal now.. If you are going to lock someone down, it better be Deng!
madisonsmadhouse
It doesn't really matter if Kobe opts out, the Bulls would still need to make at least one trade to be able to bring Kobe to Chicago. If they wanted to flat out sign him on the open market, they would need to trade away a lot of salaries first.
sport1016
its not next year, it's two years
b-riann
play some D, make the all star team, get us to the NBA finals and win. THEN we can talk respect
eddog2
QUOTE (b-riann @ Aug 29 2007, 09:25 PM) *
play some D, make the all star team, get us to the NBA finals and win. THEN we can talk respect



Lead your team in scoring for 2 years in a row while shooting over 40% from the arc in each of your first 3 seasons. Be the 19th highest scorer in the league. Then talk respect. Oh, he did that all already.

Not to mention he shot 45.5% from the field last year. That's pretty good for a jump shooter and someone who shoots as many 3's as he does.

You think Kirk, Deng, Nocioni get as many open looks if we don't have Gordon. Hell no they won't.

Anyway, I doubt Gordon is looking for a max deal. I'm sure he's just looking to be treated fairly ($10+ million). But I have a feeling that Paxson is trying to low ball him which could make this an ugly situation.
b-riann
QUOTE (eddog2 @ Aug 29 2007, 10:11 PM) *
Lead your team in scoring for 2 years in a row while shooting over 40% from the arc in each of your first 3 seasons. Be the 19th highest scorer in the league. Then talk respect. Oh, he did that all already.

Not to mention he shot 45.5% from the field last year. That's pretty good for a jump shooter and someone who shoots as many 3's as he does.

You think Kirk, Deng, Nocioni get as many open looks if we don't have Gordon. Hell no they won't.

Anyway, I doubt Gordon is looking for a max deal. I'm sure he's just looking to be treated fairly ($10+ million). But I have a feeling that Paxson is trying to low ball him which could make this an ugly situation.

i never said we shouldnt sign him.

and my point was that if he could get us to the finals, he would put himself on the map. although, we'll be the first to see him, so maybe we could give him a contract soon.
Steve9347
Ben Gordon is not in a good situation with the Chicago Bulls. On a lesser team, or a team less dedicated to moving the ball and solid defense, he would be one of the top scorers in the league, and well on his way to a quite a payday.

With the Bulls, he is important, but I know Skiles sees him as expendable and plays him that way. In our system, everyone is expendable. This is a good thing, but unfortunately when someone like Gordon wants to get paid a sum of money he deems he's worth, Paxson/Skiles might not necessarily agree with him.

I predict that this could get ugly.
Balta1701-B
QUOTE (steve9347 @ Aug 30 2007, 07:15 AM) *
I predict that this could get ugly.

Fine...if it gets ugly...the beautiful think is...we still have a solution to that...do exactly what we did with the last ugly negotitiation...treat it as a sign and trade.

This team has fully enough resources to sign him to whatever contract he wants or to match whatever contract any other team can offer him. If we don't think he's worth whatever another team offers though, then we make another team meet our asking price in a trade and wind up holding something else of value, just as we did with guys like Crawford and Curry.
Steve9347
QUOTE (Balta1701-B @ Aug 30 2007, 10:24 AM) *
Fine...if it gets ugly...the beautiful think is...we still have a solution to that...do exactly what we did with the last ugly negotitiation...treat it as a sign and trade.

This team has fully enough resources to sign him to whatever contract he wants or to match whatever contract any other team can offer him. If we don't think he's worth whatever another team offers though, then we make another team meet our asking price in a trade and wind up holding something else of value, just as we did with guys like Crawford and Curry.


Dude, the last sign-and-trade (sort of) we did was Tyson, and we got jack-spiff back.
rangercal
QUOTE (steve9347 @ Aug 30 2007, 06:10 PM) *
Dude, the last sign-and-trade (sort of) we did was Tyson, and we got jack-spiff back.

That trade hurts like hell.

sad.gif
Balta1701-B
QUOTE (steve9347 @ Aug 30 2007, 11:10 AM) *
Dude, the last sign-and-trade (sort of) we did was Tyson, and we got jack-spiff back.

The last actual sign an trade we did though was Eddy Curry to the Knicks, and I'd say that worked fairly well.
Steve9347
QUOTE (Balta1701-B @ Aug 30 2007, 01:43 PM) *
The last actual sign an trade we did though was Eddy Curry to the Knicks, and I'd say that worked fairly well.


Yeah, 3 seasons later we get the final piece, how else has that worked well?... you want to wait another three seasons to reap the true benefits of dealing Gordon...

I'm sorry, thus far we got Tyrus Thomas and Mr. Crazy out of it (and we had to give up Antonio Davis, a piece I'm still semi-upset we moved)... until one of those two averages 20 minutes a game, I don't know how you can consider that a win.


This team with Curry/Chandler instead of Wallace/Thomas/Noah would be better off for 07/08. Sorry, I'm in no mood for a sign-and-trade. I want to keep Gordon around and build, not take two steps back.
Balta1701-B
Personally, I'll add that while this team might have been better in 06-07 with Curry and Chandler than with Wallace, TT, Brown and a draft pick, I am pretty convinced that as constructed, that team just wasn't going to be good enough...not with those 2 in the middle. I think that both starting this year and in the long term, we will be better, and a lot better, with what we've built.
Steve9347
QUOTE (Balta1701-B @ Aug 30 2007, 06:09 PM) *
Personally, I'll add that while this team might have been better in 06-07 with Curry and Chandler than with Wallace, TT, Brown and a draft pick, I am pretty convinced that as constructed, that team just wasn't going to be good enough...not with those 2 in the middle. I think that both starting this year and in the long term, we will be better, and a lot better, with what we've built.


The Bulls will be good this year... will they win a championship? No. The next three years of Ben Wallace are going to get painful...
Balta1701-B
QUOTE (steve9347 @ Aug 30 2007, 09:30 PM) *
The Bulls will be good this year... will they win a championship? No. The next three years of Ben Wallace are going to get painful...

The last year I understand...but I think that this year Ben may well be quite a bit better than last given the added depth to this team, the added strength to the front court, and the fact that he's played with most of the key guys for a season already and there won't be an adaptation time.

And on top of that...I still really like having a couple of grizzly vets on this team. Don't underestimate the value of having a guy like that who can be a leader and sometimes even be the guy who can stand up to the coach if necessary. I for one don't think it's a coincidence that our season last year seemed to magically turn around right after the headband incident.
TeaLeafReaderII
QUOTE (Balta1701-B @ Aug 31 2007, 11:29 AM) *
The last year I understand...but I think that this year Ben may well be quite a bit better than last given the added depth to this team, the added strength to the front court, and the fact that he's played with most of the key guys for a season already and there won't be an adaptation time.

And on top of that...I still really like having a couple of grizzly vets on this team. Don't underestimate the value of having a guy like that who can be a leader and sometimes even be the guy who can stand up to the coach if necessary. I for one don't think it's a coincidence that our season last year seemed to magically turn around right after the headband incident.


And the Cubs are 2 1/2 ahead in their division because Lou Pinella decided to kick some dirt on an umpire back in June tongue.gif
Balta1701-B
QUOTE (TeaLeafReaderII @ Aug 31 2007, 10:03 AM) *
And the Cubs are 2 1/2 ahead in their division because Lou Pinella decided to kick some dirt on an umpire back in June tongue.gif

No, that's because their division is terrible.
b-riann
QUOTE (Balta1701-B @ Aug 31 2007, 12:30 PM) *
No, that's because their division is terrible.

headbang.gif cheers.gif bang.gif
b-riann
QUOTE (steve9347 @ Aug 30 2007, 05:40 PM) *
Yeah, 3 seasons later we get the final piece, how else has that worked well?... you want to wait another three seasons to reap the true benefits of dealing Gordon...

I'm sorry, thus far we got Tyrus Thomas and Mr. Crazy out of it (and we had to give up Antonio Davis, a piece I'm still semi-upset we moved)... until one of those two averages 20 minutes a game, I don't know how you can consider that a win.
This team with Curry/Chandler instead of Wallace/Thomas/Noah would be better off for 07/08. Sorry, I'm in no mood for a sign-and-trade. I want to keep Gordon around and build, not take two steps back.

agree
eddog2
Curry/Chandler/Davis would have been a lot better for 2006-07 than Wallace/TT/Sweetney. I don't care what anyway says.

Curry/Chandler would also be better than Wallace/TT/Noah in the long run. Why? Because Curry/Chandler played well off of each other. Not to mention that Curry is the low post scorer that everyone and their mom agrees is what we are missing. Another 2 years together and the Bulls would have had the best lineup in the NBA without a doubt. Not to mention a super young lineup. So what happends in 2-3 years if we don't win a title. Wallace retires or is resigned but is only a shell of his former self.

Then what? By then we will have replaced his $15 million with TT, Gordon, & Deng's extension. So we won't have money to go out and get another good center. We'll have to hope that Noah becomes a true Center and not a PF, and we'll have to hope that Tyrus develops into an all-star caliber PF.

Instead, we could have Curry/Chandler signed for about $18 million combined per season, Deng/Gordon/Hinrich and Sefolosha/Nocioni/Duhon on the bench.


The last thing we need is for use to trade Gordon for something he less than what he is worth and not bring another true scorer back to the Bulls. The Bulls without a potent scorer like Gordon are no more than a 45 win team, and that's if they are lucky. I just can't imagine the Bulls having to rely on Kirk & Deng to be the top scorers b/c neither player creates their own offense that well, and neither creates offense well for their teammates.

Wallace
Tyrus or Noah
Deng
Sefolosha
Kirk

That lineup would be about as bad if not worse than the Bobcats were at scoring last year. Just ugly. Gordon is the only player that can truly create his own offense. We just can't afford to lose him unless we bring in someone that matches or exceeds his scoring ability.
sport1016
I’ve been doing a little thinking, and here’s the best case for the bulls:
Don’t make a deal.
Paxson isn’t convinced that a starting backcourt of Hinrich and Gordon is a championship combination. On the one hand, the NBA has opened up and gone to small backcourts like in Dallas, Golden State, Utah, occasionally Phoenix and Milwaukee, and the Bulls with basically their top three guards all 6’3 or less the last three years. But Dallas was a better team with a bigger Adrian Griffin starting at the two. Especially in the playoffs. And Baron Davis is 6’5 and amazing. Milwaukee is healthy again. This year Utah will swap out Derrick Fischer for Morris Almond or Ronny Brewer.

Of course a three guard rotation with Thabo presumably getting minutes at both guard spots to maximize the time the bulls have a 6’7 man in their backcourt is helpful. Hinrich has proven he can spend time against bigger guards these last few years. But that rotation is not ideal unless Thabo started and Gordon came off the bench. It’s the reason Seattle had limited success with Ray Allen and Rashard Lewis. Scorers aren’t worth much if their man is making up for it and then some on the other end. The solution is to not match Ben up on the floor against Jason Kidd and Vince Carter. Thabo and Kirk are much better equipped to challenge them. Ben could truly average 22ppg in 32 minutes off the bench, a scintillating and probably all-star worthy feat.
But BG7 wants to be a starter. He always has. He always will.
At least he wants to be paid like one. Ben thinks he deserves the salary of a starting SG who averages 22ppg. If he were 6’5, I’d be outside the Berto Center on a hunger strike until Paxson got a deal done. But he’s not. He might not be 6’2.

In a year or two when Tyrus and Noah add strength and polish, the Bulls will have the most versatile and dynamic front court in the league with Noah, Thomas, and Deng. Defensive, shooting, and playmaking studs like Thabo and Kirk are very well suited to play with those three long armed finishers. Assuming you haven’t paid Gordon the big bucks he wants the Bulls can easily afford those five guys along with a solid bench headed by Nocioni and an aging Wallace for a long time. Or maybe for the sake of Thabo’s versatily the Bulls move Deng to the 2 and Nocioni to the 3 and Thabo to the bench. Or maybe put Tyrus on the bench and Deng/Noc at the 4. The point is, the Bulls have too many long, athletic, talented players who can defend multiple positions never mind their own to pay Gordon the big bucks.

Now that I’ve just explained why this team doesn’t need Gordon, I’d like to add the caveat that I’d love to keep him and have figured out how:
Don’t make a deal.
Low ball him with 6th man money. A contract similar to Nocioni’s 38 million dollar deal. That deal I’d do.
Let Gordon play out the year and become a restricted free agent. Starter or 6th man, we’ll get his best in a contract year. Then, next off-season, when Gordon becomes an RFA no one will touch him when the Bulls claim they’ll match any offer. Anderson Varejao is highly regarded, but no team will tie up their money just to have Cleveland match the offer nine days later. Chandler, Curry, nor Crawford received other offers for the same reason as RFAs. This will force Ben to give the Bulls another contract year performance after signing a reasonable one-year tender offer.
Now, two seasons later one of two situations will hopefully occur: 1) Ben will have been coming off the bench for 1-2 seasons, and may have accepted a Barbosa/Ginobili/Stackhouse role and a similar pay scale. 2) The Bulls will prove to Paxson (and me) that they can make a championship run with Ben starting at the 2, and two offseasons from now pay him starting SG money with a clear conscience after another two years of evaluation.
hammerhead johnson
QUOTE (TeaLeafReaderII @ Aug 27 2007, 10:19 AM) *
"If you look at other players around the league that are doing things similar to what I’ve done in my past year and throughout my career, I just want to get that equal respect," said Gordon, who’ll become a restricted free agent after the upcoming season if he fails to sign an extension. "And that’s all it’s really about. The money I make is going to be more than I’ve ever made, so it really just boils down to getting your just due and your respect."


laugh.gif

Ben,

You have built up one hell of a resume if we're talking about bouncing the ball off of your knee-caps. That 2.9 to 2.5 career assist-to-turnover ratio is a thing of beauty. Words can't describe how awesome your defense is. Your contributions to team chemistry are immeasurable.

Now, go and share the ball with Jamal Crawford and Stephon Marbury. For the love of God, get the f*ck outta here. You're ruining my entire Bulls experience.
BG7
The Bulls need to stop being conservative with pay and offer the guys who are vital to the success of this team decent contracts.

The fact is that the Bulls would not have gotten to the 2nd round Playoffs without BG. And we will not continue to be successful without him, unless he's replaced by a superstar shooting guard, which I don't see happening at all.

Sure, Luol Deng seems to be attracting all the attention lately (and he deserves it), but we can't and won't get to the next level without BG's scoring. There are very few guards who can light up the scoreboard like him. And all the haters can STFU because his offense + unselfishness + work ethic EASILY makes up for his lack of defense.

The man deserves a new contract.
sport1016
Ben is an amazing offensive player. You can't watch basketball and not think that. It's true he is a terrific scorer.

But what team has won it all with a tiny backcourt?

It could be argued it has kept many very good teams from being championship teams. Jeff Hornacek's lack of size was one major reason the Jazz never won a title. Last season Dallas was supposedly the best in the league, but they were even better with Griffin starting at the two than the more talented but small Devin Harris.

The Bulls would look their best with Thabo starting at the 2 and BG getting 30+mpg and 20+ppg off the bench. He could be the best of the barbosa/stackhouse types.

There is no way you can convince me that having ben start is better for the TEAM. Forcing him or kirk into early foul trouble every other game is not championship caliber basketball.

Keep Ben. But you have to pay him like a 6th man. He won't take that. Hence, no contract yet.
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