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Steve9347
QUOTE
Maybe we should have foreseen a mini-collapse because the formula of "young players + swirling trade rumors" is a recipe for disaster. (Note: I'm one of the idiots who ignored this possibility and picked the Bulls to sneak into the Finals, although I didn't anticipate Luol Deng and Ben Gordon consulting with Emeka Okafor before passing up lucrative extensions, causing much of the uncertainty we're seeing right now.) But nobody could have predicted the Bulls would implode this quickly, or that Chicago's fans would chant Kobe's name during home games and destroy the team's collective confidence in the process. If you watched the blowout loss to Toronto, then you know how dangerous this situation has become. The Bulls had about as much energy and vigor as the bank hostages right after they were released in "Inside Man." By the third quarter, the Chicago crowd was chanting for Kobe -- shades of the Hickory High crowd chanting for Jimmy Chitwood, only GM John Paxson never grabbed a microphone and yelled, "This is your team!" After the game, T.J. Ford even asked a reporter, "What's going on with that team?"

Here's the short answer: Scott Skiles has done a dreadful job of coaching them so far. Let's see, Gordon is the best sixth man in the league, Ty Thomas provides instant energy off the bench … and Skiles is starting both of them??? Whaaaaaaat??? I'm with Sam Smith here -- why not start Ben Wallace, Joe Smith, Andres Nocioni, Deng and Kirk Hinrich, then bring the energy/pace-changing guys (Gordon, Thomas, Thabo Sefolosha and Jo Noah) off the bench? Or would that make too much sense? Once Skiles figures out the minutes, they'll be fine. If he can't figure it out, he'll be gone.

Here's the long answer: Paxson should have kept Tyson Chandler instead of signing Wallace; he should have made sure they had enough contracts to make a run at Kevin Garnett if he ever became available (seriously, how did the Bulls screw that up???); and he never should have even returned Mitch Kupchak's phone calls if he honestly felt Deng was untouchable. How the hell are you getting Kobe without giving up Deng? You think Lakers fans would be excited to pay $500 a ticket to see Gordon and Thomas? More importantly, how is Deng untouchable? What am I missing here? He's a very good young player. I like him a lot … but Kobe Bryant is on the table!!!! He's the best player in the league! I can't stop using exclamation points!!!!

Reason No. 12,359 why I love the NBA: Seeing how the Chandler/Wallace thing worked out. To be honest, I just love being right. It happens so rarely. We've reached the point where Joe Dumars should send Christmas gifts to the Paxson family every year with a card that reads, "Thank you for having two sons who allowed me to control the Central Division for most of this decade."


What an excellent write up and summary.
madisonsmadhouse
Well except for the assumption that Tyson Chandler ever would have played well here, its not too bad.
Steve9347
QUOTE (madisonsmadhouse @ Nov 16 2007, 12:49 PM) *
Well except for the assumption that Tyson Chandler ever would have played well here, its not too bad.

He did play well here!

Oh, and he'd be way better than Ben Wallace right now, and about 5 mill cheaper...
Wanne
Excellent write up....and SPOT ON!
Chicago Bulls Franchise
Tyson had one bad year after his pretty good 04-05 season. The way he's doing now in New Orleans really makes me think Skiles is to blame for the lack of development of our post players.
ZoomSlowik
Not bad, except I don't see how we could have topped Al Jefferson, Gerald Green, Ryan Gomes ,Sebastian Telfair, and Theo Ratliff's giant expiring contract for KG.
TeaLeafReaderII
QUOTE (ZoomSlowik @ Nov 18 2007, 12:50 AM) *
Not bad, except I don't see how we could have topped Al Jefferson, Gerald Green, Ryan Gomes ,Sebastian Telfair, and Theo Ratliff's giant expiring contract for KG.


?

Al Jefferson, and the first round pick are the only thing worth anything... Bulls could have matched that easily.


also another nugget from Simmon's

"Reason No. 12,809 why I love the NBA: The thought of John Paxson thumbing through the USA Today in his office, stumbling across Portland's latest box score and seeing Aldridge dropped 30 on somebody, closing his eyes in pain for a few seconds, quietly folding the paper and placing it on his desk, opening the bottom drawer of that same desk, pulling out a flask of whiskey, taking a big swig, then firing the flask across the room and shattering a framed photo of the '92 Bulls team."
ZoomSlowik
QUOTE (TeaLeafReaderII @ Nov 21 2007, 11:27 AM) *
?

Al Jefferson, and the first round pick are the only thing worth anything... Bulls could have matched that easily.


1) They didn't get a 1st.

2) We have nothing on this team with as much value as Jefferson. Quality 22-year old big men don't exactly grow on trees.

3) We didn't have an expiring contract anywhere close to the $11 mil that Ratliff is making.

4) Gomes, Telfair, and last year Green are all young players that can step into a rotation and be effective. We've only got two such players right now with Thabo and Tyrus, and MAYBE Noah.

5) Even assuming we could have matched it (which I obviously think is dubious), do you really think we'd have given up Deng, Tyrus, Thabo, Noah, and whatever salary filler we'd need to match his salary? I SERIOUSLY doubt it.
TeaLeafReaderII
QUOTE (ZoomSlowik @ Nov 21 2007, 12:45 PM) *
1) They didn't get a 1st.

2) We have nothing on this team with as much value as Jefferson. Quality 22-year old big men don't exactly grow on trees.

3) We didn't have an expiring contract anywhere close to the $11 mil that Ratliff is making.

4) Gomes, Telfair, and last year Green are all young players that can step into a rotation and be effective. We've only got two such players right now with Thabo and Tyrus, and MAYBE Noah.

5) Even assuming we could have matched it (which I obviously think is dubious), do you really think we'd have given up Deng, Tyrus, Thabo, Noah, and whatever salary filler we'd need to match his salary? I SERIOUSLY doubt it.


Sign and trade PJ = 10 mill expiring contract
Sign and trade Nocioni
Deng
Gordon
Kirk
Noah, Thabo, Tyrus high first round picks who are full of potential.
Kryhapa a one time starter who is buried because of the bulls depth at sf
Late first round pick

And keep in mind this was when deng and Gordons value was at an all time high and Kirk and his deal was considered a steal.... heck, most people still felt Wallace had 2 or 3 good years left.

I think you must have been watching too many documentaries on Telfair and not enough celtics game if you really think the Bulls couldn't have matched and beaten that deal...


PS. Gomes telfair and green are trash.
TeaLeafReaderII
and they got 2 first round picks... and still got jobbed.
ZoomSlowik
Yes, because we were really going to trade two or more of our big three pieces to get KG and totally gut the roster. rolleyes.gif

I'm talking about REALISTIC deals that we might have actually considered doing. Sure, if we traded Deng AND Gordon or Hinrich we could have gotten it done. We're not in that alternate universe though.

And Gomes, Telfair, and Green are far from trash. Gomes is a solid young role player that can get you double-digit scoring and play inside or out. Gerald Green is an elite athlete that was averaging 10 points in only 22 minutes per game last year and was considered a high-ceiling wing player (though he's off to a bad start this year). And Telfair may have some issues, but he's still a talented PG that's young and has been reasonably productive with more minutes this year.

And my bad on the picks, I was so focused on Boston's #5 I forgot about the other ones. Getting back their 2009 is a pretty nice bonus for Minnesota.
Balta1701-B
The other issue with a Garnett trade is the classic problem that we had more stuff to give up than the C's, and so the T-Wolves could ask for more and feel slighted if they weren't getting it.

As far as I could tell, the T-Wolves walked out of that deal with 100% of Boston's young talent. If they'd dealt with the Bulls, they'd probably have gotten 40% of our young talent.

On paper, which one would you prefer, Thomas, Noah/the Knicks pick before we drafted him and PJ Brown or something like that, or the Jefferson deal that they got? I'd say it's no contest that you'd want the Bulls deal, and you could play around by subbing in Deng or Gordon for one of those blocks, and it'd still be the same way. But because the Bulls had more, the T-Wolves could ask for more; they could demand Gordon and Deng and PJ from us, because we had so many different assets. When trading with the Celtics, the T-Wolves sort of took everything they could get. The problem of course is this f***s over the T-Wolves, because they get less back in return, but no one ever said Kevin McHale was a good GM.
ZoomSlowik
I totally disagree with that. Unless they were getting back Deng and one of Gordon, Kirk or Noc, they ended up getting the better deal, and I'm fairly confident we didn't offer that, otherwise it would have happened. Would Deng, Tyrus, Noah, and filler really be any better for them right now? I don't see how.

Tyrus is the highest ceiling guy of any of the ancillary pieces, but Gerald Green was considered a high ceiling option in the off-season as well (looks pretty bad so far this year this year though), Gomes was a solid 4th scorer/bench guy and still is, and though Telfair has problems he still has ability and is very young. And so far this season, Gomes and Telfair have been fairly productive for Minnesota (though Gomes is shooting poorly right now).

Then of course you factor in Jefferson and Deng. I like Luol a lot and think his start to this year is an abberation, but I'd definitely take Jefferson. He had a slower start than Luol coming right out of high school, but he really came into his own in the second half of last year and is turning into a beast that could get you 22-12 for years to come. He's a franchise big man, which is the most valuable commodity in the league. You could make the case that Jefferson straight up for Garnett would have been a pretty good haul when you factor in the age difference and the increase in cap space/available money (even with Al's new extension).

Okay, at the time we probably thought that deal would be better because we all thought that Deng was going to take the next step to superstardom and that Tyrus was going to start becoming a force. Pretty much every report had the Bulls as the favorite, but most of them also said that if they didn't part with two of their key players other teams could creep in and offer a better deal. That's exactly what Boston did. They were not going to get a franchise big man and 3 other relatively useful young pieces from the Bulls, and any future picks wouldn't have added a whole lot of value.
Balta1701-B
Since this thread started with Simmons, I'll continue it with Simmons:
QUOTE
I wrote it last summer, and I'll write it again: Other than KG, the only other pieces worth a damn in that Boston-Minny trade were Al Jefferson, Ryan Gomes (a mortal lock for free agency) and the rights to Minny's future No. 1 from the Szczerbiak/Davis trade. That was the best offer for one of the 30 greatest players ever? Tuesday's Boston Globe reported that Kevin McHale turned down Golden's State's draft-day offer of Al Harrington, Monta Ellis, Andris Biedrins and the No. 18 pick, a better haul than Boston's offer. Could the Wolves have gotten Amare Stoudemire if the Suns threw in Raja Bell and Marcus Banks for cap purposes? Could they have gotten Elton Brand AND Chris Kaman from the Clippers? Could they have gotten Ben Wallace, Luol Deng and the No. 9 pick from Chicago? What about Andrew Bynum, Lamar Odom, Kwame Brown's expiring contract and the No. 19 pick from the Lakers?

Believe me, I'm not arguing with how it turned out. But what happened with the KG Sweepstakes -- McHale giving a discount deal to one of his best friends and helping his old team -- was a complete betrayal of every Minnesota fan who loved KG and supported that team. How could they support the franchise after that? Shouldn't they be organizing boycotts of the games? Check out these four e-mails I received after writing about KG's impact on the Celtics and tell me that (A) this wasn't one of the cruelest trades ever inflicted on a fan base, and (cool.gif the owner shouldn't sell the franchise and give those die-hard Minnesota fans a fresh start. All 790 of them.
ZoomSlowik
Simmons is also a blatantly biased Boston fan. A year ago he was raving about how much potential Gerald Green had and how he hoped they didn't trade him. A couple choice bits from his article on high-potential players that came out less than a year ago (December 5th 2006):

"A TUP [tremendous upside potential] Guy with a decent chance still to be very good or great. Even though it may make more sense for our team to trade him for immediate veteran help, we pray against it because we can't handle the possibility of being haunted down the road by the guy. Think Gerald Green."

"Green possesses a gorgeous, jaw-dropping jump shot and leaps higher than a border collie in a Frisbee-catching contest. It's easy to imagine him becoming a cross between T-Mac and George Gervin, even when he's running around like a decapitated chicken, which is almost all of the time."

But now that he's no longer a Celtic he's "not worth a damn." blink.gif

Look at it this way: they got considerably more for KG than the Sixers got for AI, or the Lakers got for Shaq, or the Magic got for McGrady, or any other deal for a superstar you want to look at. Maybe there were more tantalizing deals out there (that Golden State one is interesting, though none of them are on Jefferson's tier), but most of that paragraph is pure speculation. And if we're going to keep referring to Simmons, he regularly comments on how Deng and the other Bulls' players aren't elite players.
TeaLeafReaderII
QUOTE (ZoomSlowik @ Nov 21 2007, 08:02 PM) *
he regularly comments on how Deng and the other Bulls' players aren't elite players.



They certainly aren't playing like elite players....
ZoomSlowik
QUOTE (TeaLeafReaderII @ Nov 22 2007, 12:52 PM) *
They certainly aren't playing like elite players....


No argument here. This slow-start crap is getting old for a team that's supposed to be a contender.
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