Thought we could use a thread strictly for discussing the offseason. It will be a long one.

We have two first round picks this year. #16 and #26

Do we try to trade up? Draft players from both spots.

Save our money for 2010? Possibly go after say Boozer or Jermaine ONeal?

Just things to discuss and think about it.

I'd love to get Terrence Williams and DeJuan Blair. Doubtful we could get both though unless one falls.

Kirk and/or Luol and/or Tyrus will be traded.

I would really hate to see Tyrus go... he has so much potential and, judging by how much he improved with his jumpshot this season and communicating with the team better, he's made a serious commitment to improving as a player. I have no idea why he's always on the bench.

Boozer is a FA this offseason. He will likely wind up with Detroit barring someone pulling off a miracle and finding more cap space, although a sign and trade could be possible if we could interest Utah in about $15 million worth of our current contracts. Jermaine O'Neal is not even close to a FA: he'd have to opt out of something like $20+ million for next season. He'll make more next year by not opting out than he would in his next 5.

The Bulls have no cap space this offseason to speak of. They could use the MLE for 1 season if they lose out on Gordon. In 2010, they're currently a couple million away from being able to offer a true max deal.

Trying to trade up would be an intelligent move if anyone wanted it...but it's a wide open offseason right now. We can survive without making changes for once. But some changes would be darn nice, and we're in a great position to make them.

Well first off i would like to say that series with Boston was amazing. I never thought we would be that close. The reason i say that is- this team just doesn't play defense. . in game 7 we saw that as we gave up too many easy layups. With that being said i would say objective #1 is to either get a new head coach who stresses defense OR get a defensive specialist assistant to add to the coaching staff.
Objective #2 - I hate to say this but were better off just letting Gordon walk. Save that money for 2010 as guys like Bosh, Nowitski, Wade and Stoudemire will be available.

Objective #3- Make a deal. I would offer Toronto Brad Miller and Tyrus Thomas for Chris Bosh. I would have said Noah, but it seems as if Noah has more basketball smarts than Thomas and Im sure Toronto would want a guy as athletic as Thomas if they are giving up there best player.

Objective #4- Draft an athletic guard to come off the bench to back up Rose. I would love if Stephen Curry would still be available at #16. Draft another big guy to come off the bench. BJ Mullens would be a great pick up. Hopefully he falls to 26- i highly doubt it, but you never know..

Your 2009-2010 chicago bulls:

Joakim Noah C
Chris Bosh PF
Luol Deng SF
John Salmons SG
Derek Rose

Bench:
Hinrich PG-SG,
Stephen Curry PG
Tim Thomas SF-PF,
BJ Mullens PF-C
Aaron Gray C (re-sign him to a cheap 1 year deal)
Lindsey Hunter G (re-sign him to a cheap 1 year deal- the dude is great as Rose's mentor)

Trade Kirk, Tyrus, filler and our 2 First rounders for Amare. Then resign BG. A lineup of Rose,BG,Deng,Amare,Noah would be EC contenders. If that fails I'm pretty sure Kirk is going to be traded but I'm not so sure about expirings anymore. Our team darn near got to the 2nd round when we were expecting to barely give the C's a series. We need to restock on some good players. I'm a fan of Travis Outlaw and to me Kirk in Portland makes sense.

The only way we re-sign BG is if we trade Hinrich. In that case your sacrificing solid defense and hustle for an inconsistent scoring machine. . . Would that be worth it? I guess in VDN's basketball world it would be. I would like Amare, but his injuries scare me. Bosh is a sure 20-10 every night.

I would vastly prefer BG to Hinrich.

And I'd vastly prefer Bosh to Amare. If you allow me to factor in their contract status, and you assume the coach will play them equal minutes, I pretty much value Tyrus and Amare the same right now, given age, injuries, defense, the Suns offense, and how much more expensive Amare is going to be for the next 6 years. You can laugh at me for that if you want.

As I see it Tyrus Thomas has made excellent strides and will stay. He will either start or be 6th man but for the Bulls to trade him now would be a mistake.

I hate to see Hinrich go but it appears that may gonna happen. He can start at PG or SG for too many teams. If Gordon stays the Bulls are looking good

I'm not so sure you go for Bosch with 2 first round picks. With Noah and Miller in the middle the Bulls are set.

Aaron Gray can play but doesn't fit with the Bulls up tempo so he's gone as is Tim Thomas and Lindsey Hunter.

I think your starting 5 will be what it is now next year: Rose, Gordon, Thomas, Noah, and Deng. Salmons is the 6th man

If Hinrich goes you need another guard and you need another PF. As I see it, you don't mess too much with the chemistry. If you can get Amare I favor him over Bosch.

Gotta watch the cap too folks....these are some salaries for those who will/may be here next year:

* Brad Miller - $12,250,000

*Kirk Hinrich - $9,500,000

*Luol Deng - $10,370,425

*John Salmons - $5,456,000

* Derrick Rose - $5,184,480

*Tyrus Thomas - $4,743,598

*Joakim Noah - $2,455,680

The way I see it, one of the following two things has to happen for the Bulls to make any kind of progress next year:

1) Acquire a big man that can actually create their own shot

2) Retain Gordon

If one of those two doesn't happen, their offense, and in effect the team as a whole since they're not a good defensive/rebounding team, is screwed. The lineup works reasonably well right now because Rose, Gordon and Salmons are all capable of going off at times, but replace Gordon with Deng in the starting lineup and you have problems. We've seen what happens when Deng, Tyrus, Noah and Salmons when he's not hot try to create shots, and it isn't pretty.

In an ideal world you trade anyone not named Rose for Bosh and re-sign Gordon, giving you a pretty nasty scoring trio. The defense would be a bit soft, but they're not exactly shutting people down anyways and Bosh can at least rebound. I'd take Stoudemire too, but I'd prefer Bosh mostly for effort/consistency issues, though age, contract and injury issues all lean a bit in his favor too (Amare has the big microfracture injury and the fractured orbital bone, but Bosh tends to get more minor ones that force him to miss about 10 games). Obviously depending on trade scenarios and Gordon's demands we may have to settle for well less than that.

As for the draft, this class BLOWS. Getting someone useful with either of those picks would be a serious longshot. Someone like Jordan Hill would normally go in the late lottery/mid-first and he's a likely top-5 pick. There are some guys I like (DeRozan, James Johnson, Henderson and Patterson), though none are more than role players. Taking a project like Mullens and Holliday might not be an awful idea.

Terrance Williams and Dujuan Blair are my two choices in the draft. I think those guys would fit good on our team because of their versatility and defense.

As much as it pains me to say it... I think we have to let BG7 walk.
He is lookig to get a big pay day, and I don't want to give him what I think other teams will.
If he could be had for 9... I would do it, but he turned down 11, and there are talks that he is looking for 12 to 15.

I would rather roll with a lineup of Rose, Salmons, Deng, a Stud Big Currently not on the team, and Noah.
If I had my choice, I want to keep Kirk to have as the 6th man off the bench. Kirk is the heart of this team IMO.
He isn't Chauncey Billups, but I think he is that type of important to our team.

that means we have 2 first rounders, Tyrus Thomas, and Brad Miller (and his huge contract) as trading chips.

If I had my choice... I want Bosh.
If he can't be had in a trade... don't panic and make a move just to make a move.
Wait for 2010 and land him then.

Well if there was one player to pay last year if you had to decide between Deng or Gordon I would have said Gordon. We signed the wrong dude. Gordon will be better than anything we can possibly get next year, we HAVE to resign him or look for a sign and trade to get a star player in return.

Awesome post and my thoughts exactly. Make a push for Bosh! He would be much more valuable than Stoudemire. I think Brad Miller and Tyrus Thomas with a first rounder should be more than enough for Bosh. If not, he is a free agent in 2010 with the rest of the star studed free agents. I don't want Pax to make the mistake of giving Gordon a big deal and holding us hostage into not being able to make splash to significantly improve our team in the summer of 2010.

It looks like this thread has hit exactly what Bulls management is going to try to do...make a run at Bosh.

Tyrus, Miller and the two 1st Rounders will be offered to the Raps before the draft for Bosh IMO. After Colangelo sat down with Bosh a few weeks ago, the first thing Colangelo said to the media was, "We're not trading Bosh." That just goes to show Colagnelo's meeting with Bosh actually went...not well for Toronto. Colangelo will look to build around Bargnani from here on out. Putting Tyrus next to him would match better with Barganani than Bosh did anyway. Not that Tyrus is half the player Bosh is, but Tyrus wouldn't take the low block away from Bargnani like Bosh does. Tyrus playing with a big man in the post would help maximize his potential as well...he'd be great next to Bargnani.

The Raps would get the cap relief from Miller they would've gotten from Bosh anyway while picking up 2 1st Rounders and a RESTRICTED Tyrus Thomas. The Raps would be crazy not to pull the trigger...but they may put the pressure on themselves to let Bosh walk for nothing before the 2010 season...which he'll do.


As for Gordon is concerned. Let him go. The Bulls don't currently have the roster to facilitate him in maximizing his potential. Gordon needs to play with a team that has players who demand multiple double teams. The Bulls don't have one. A team that will creep into the Gordon sweeps (if there are any sweeps for what he actually wants) will be Portland. It has been no secret Portland has been eyeing Gordon for years and have all of the sudden been rumored to have wanted to clear cap space to go after a FA. It may take as much as 5/65 to bring in Gordon. Only a rich owner like Paul Allen may be able to stomach that kind of money for Gordon...but Gordon could reach is max potential in Portland next to Roy. If you watched that Houston series...Portland's best long range shooter was Travis Outlaw. Portland has an embarrassment of riches, which would make a sign and trade deal easy.

Gordon for Outlaw, Webster and Rodriguez. Webster would serve as Gordon's long term solution and is a much better fit to Rose being a 6'6'' G who can shoot from anywhere. Outlaw and Rodriguez contracts would be off the books after '09, but would provide depth and energy for next season. If Portland were interested in adding Gordon to their young/crazy talented roster at 13mil for the next 5 years...they'd make this move. If the Bulls couldn't facilitate a sign/trade deal like this for BG...let him walk for nothing.

A deal that I believe MUST happen...trade Hinrich. I don't care what for. Trade him to Milwaukee for Ridnour and Elson. Both of their contracts are off the books for the 2010 season and would save the Bulls 17 million for the 2010/2011 seasons on a guy who is no more than a backup on our team. Elson can give 10-15 quality minutes a game for any NBA club.

My ideal roster for 2009/2010...it'll never happen:

Rose, Salmons/Webster, Deng, Bosh, Noah....Rodriguez, Salmons/Webster, Outlaw, Elson, Ridnour, Tim Thomas, Jerome James

If Pax doesn't think we can move any of our bigger contracts (e.g. Hinrich) this off-season, I wouldn't be terribly surprised if the Bulls sold one of their draft picks (or traded for a future pick) to keep money off the books for 2010.

I really hope they make a run at Bosh this off-season, though I doubt anything will happen. We'll probably have to wait until the trade deadline next year to get some action. I just think Toronto will want to hold on to him as long as possible in hopes of either working out a new deal with him or getting more in a trade for him.

Bargnani isn't a traditional low post big man at all, he's more like a small forward masquerading as a big man. 30% of his shots were 3's, and another 44% were 2-point jumpers. Chris Paul had a higher percentage of his shots come in the paint. He's more like a young Nowitzki than anything, which kind of hurts that theory.

That said, Tyrus gives them a far more defense-oriented player at the power forward spot (I'm assuming Marion isn't back), so he could blend a bit better with Bargnani than Bosh since the latter gives them another big that gets a large percentage of his shots on jumpers. They'd need someone else to replace Bosh' scoring though, guys like Calderon and Parker can't really take over with their scoring.

Look at the money folks! You don't wanna break the bank here!

*Tyrus Thomas is a S*T*E*A*L at $4.75 mil and only has an upside. Miller is the expendable one if you wanna talk money at $12.2 mil. Miller may be hard to move though, He made around 22 turnovers in the series and he's slow.

As I've thought about things, I'm not sure the Bulls can sign Gordon. If that holds true you keep Hinrich who's also a steal at $9.5 mil next year and he's a better defender than Gordon.

I don't see moving Luol Deng. I believe these guys are most likely gone: Tim Thomas, Gordon, and Aaron Gray. I'm not sure what happens after that.

This is what I anticipate to be the roster now if I'm Pax:

- Noah, Deng, Tyrus Thomas, Rose, and Hinrich. Those are your starters with Salmons as sixth man. You have2 first round picks so you don't need to go crazy.

Looking at salariesIf you can get Bosh at $15.8 mil in 2010 that's good,. Stoudamire is due $16.3 mil and with his injuries that's not good so I change my mind and go with Bosh *if* the Raptor wanna deal.

Anyway you gotta watch the money.

The Bulls overall salaries are here:

http://hoopshype.com/salaries/chicago.htm

Why not start salmons at the 2?

Miller's contract expires at the end of teh 2009-2010 season. That makes him ridiculously valuable right now.

So you're saying a sign and trade involving Gordon as well?

Anyway...the Raps at this point must have some idea whether or not they're keeping Bosh at the end of 2010 given their salary constraints and Bosh's demands. If they think there's a good chance they're keeping him, then nothing will happen. If they don't, put together our best offer now and see if they make the move. If they want more than Tyrus + one of Hinrich/Deng/Gordon/some of our expiring deals in a sign and trade + a couple draft picks, then let them see if someone else can beat that...because I seriously doubt anyone will even come close. We can basically give them anything and everything they want.

Salmons is only 6' 6" Deng is 6' 8" and a better rebounder you can use Salmons at guard as well so to me that makes him more valuable from the bench. Of course there could be times when you wanna start Salmons over Deng and you'll have that flexibility.

Not as I saw things. Miller isn't what he used to be and if you ask me he cost the Bulls the series in game five.l I won't argue though because you can make an argument for keeping Miller.

I'm not saying keep Miller for Miller's sake, I'm saying his contract is now one of the big 2010 expiring contracts. Either you hold that solely because it helps you open up cap space next year, or you use that as your deal-maker for a team that wants cap space.

Salmons can play 2 guard but he's not quick enough to star there IMO. He can play in spurts but his natural position is small forward.

He doesn't need to "Star" there, he needs to give me 15 points and reasonably good defense alongside our developing star PG.

I'd rather keep Gordon and use Salmons as the backup SF and SG, but if we simply can't do that...Salmons has already shown himself to be a solid backup option.

Woops I meant "Start" not star.

Are we looking to get anything out of trading kirk besides expiring contracts?

If we do, then it hurts our chances at 2010 cap space if that's what we're after...and it really kills our chances of extending Gordon (even a draft pick this year is extra money against the cap).

The one way that everything could work out is if you can: 1. Trade Kirk for something useful to a team that has some cap space to take his contract on without giving us the full amount back, then trade for Bosh this offseason using Miller/James's expiring deal as the bulk of the salary, and then you probably still have room to extend Gordon and Bosh as well.

You don't say no if someone wants to give you back something useful for Hinrich, but if you can trade him and get back nothing other than $5 mil in cap space and a 2nd round pick, it's the right move.

First off I want Ben resigned...shooters like that don't grow on trees. Other than that...I just really want to dump Deng.

Yeah that's pretty much impossible.

Or at least hire a coach who knows how to use him

also, to whoever said that they want us to draft BJ Mullens... NO.

i saw him in person once this year as well and saw about half a dozen other full games... he is without a doubt the most overrated player in this years class. Imagine Noah but slower, stupider, weaker, and with 1000% less drive.

You'd still have a player that is better than BJ Mullens. He didn't even start for ohio state because he puts no effort into rebounding, has no offense when he's not within half an arms length of the basket, and doesn't care about defense. What about any of that sounds appealing to you?

I've seen Bargnani in person twice. One of the games was when Jermaine O'Neal was still a Raptor. There were possessions where he was chased out of the paint by Bosh and Jermaine.

I think Bargnani's offenive talents are obvious and his back to the basket game is a work in progress...but he has potential in that aspect. He got the ball more and more in the post after O'Neal was traded and he looked good. At 23, there is room for his back to the basket game to grow.

I agree he's more like Dirk, but Bargnani will be able to score inside with regularity. I also believe Bargnani would be capable of picking up the scoring slack from Bosh in time. If Toronto doesn't buy into Bargnani being a guy they can build around....they had no business taking him #1 overall years ago. Weak draft or not...they have to view him as a building block.

My ultimate scenario:

- Re-sign Ben Gordon
- Fire Vinny Del Negro and Hire Thom Thibedeau as head coach
- Trade Deng/Tyrus/2009 1st for Bosh
- Draft a versatile bench player (Dajuan Blair, BJ Mullens, Terrence Williams, Wayne Ellington, Danny Green, etc.)

Looking at...

PG Rose
SG Gordon
SF Salmons
PF Bosh
C Noah

Hinrich, Miller, Draftee, Thomas (Tim), Hunter, Gray, Fillers

I'm not saying I REALLY want to take him (there are better options), but for a late round pick, you really don't find guys with more upside. Yes, he's clearly a work in progress and there's zero chance he starts for us. You can say that about 90% of the guys in this draft class though, it's not like you're passing on a much safer bet if you take him. A 7-footer with athleticism is very rarely available that late in the draft. Noah isn't the greatest comparison, he has much better size and explosive leaping ability while having none of the motor and energy. He's not exactly a statue in the mobility department either, and it'd be hard to be dumber than Tyrus and Noah (though I'm not arguing that he's smart). If he does happen to pan out he's more like a more explosive Chris Kaman by most accounts (he looks like a less-skilled Amare Stoudemire to me, but that sounds better than it really is), which we could definitely use.

Granted he has a very high bust factor given his lack of polish, but if he does happen to work out you have a definite asset. For a team with glaring needs he's an awful pick, for a team in the latter half of the first that made the playoffs and can afford to take the risk he could work out brilliantly.

I suppose, but ohio state centers don't exactly have the best reputation these days.

Does anyone know if Gani Lawal has declared?

There really only is one other one, and he's been hurt so much I find it hard to complain about 9-7 with a block in under 22 minutes in his rookie year, though it is well below expectations and he's fouling at an absurd rate.

Lawal is in, but he's basically Tyrus without the ridiculous leaping ability (good but not elite) and has no shooting ability whatsoever. He'll never see the floor between the presence of Tyrus and the frequency of the small lineup. He's a better player right now than Mullens, but at least the latter has size, something we don't have (again, not really endorsing the pick).

Oh ok, I haven't seen much of Lawal.

God i don't care who we draft really as long as they can post up once in a while

Unfortunately in this class none of the bigs are terribly likely to be solid contributors after Griffin.

Yeah, honestly outside of Rubio, Griffin, and Thabeet I really am not all that impressed with this draft class. (But Lester Hudson is my sleeper)

If Toronto is dumb enough to take Deng's contract than i would love to make this deal. Hinrich is a perfect 6th man, Salmons did a solid job as our SF this year, you still have Gordon's offensive production and make room for a true PF who can give you 20-10 every night.

One point I'd like to make in this thread....

Last season coming in to this season there was every reason to think the Bulls would take a step backwards. They had an overcrowded backcourt, not enough front court depth, new coach, and most importantly, a rookie PG who needed minutes more than anything else. Thus, Hinrich was going to the bench, guys like Thabo were buried, Tyrus and Noah were going to be stuck behind Gooden, Nocioni was going to get a lot of time at PF, and we really needed to make a trade or two to clear out the herd. Not making any changes was not an option.

This year...if we do absolutely nothing, there is plenty of reason to think we can get better. Tyrus and Noah can hopefully take another step forwards. Rose could be in for a huge step upwards next year. Deng returning, if he can give us anything/integrate in to what we have, would be a significant frontcourt upgrade. Adding in 2 mid to late 1st round picks may make our rotation a little deeper. Our bench is a better matchup for our starters already, just by getting rid of Noc/Gooden and bringing in Miller. The only thing we'd need to do to make that work is resign Gordon, and even if he walks, we can use Salmons as an adequate SG for next year...and then still go in to 2010 with a ton of cap space.

Last year, we needed to make a move to thin out the herd. When we finally made those moves, they made us a lot better. This year, we can basically stand pat and actually become a better team...which means if we're going to make a move, it needs to be for a real, legit upgrade.

We'll still be a 1st Rnd exit IMO. While I'm thrilled of the Bulls potential and proud of their play against Boston...we matched up as well with "KG'less" Boston as we would have anyone in the 1st Round. I honestly believe the only teams we would've beaten in the 1st Round were Philly and Detroit...which isn't saying much. We've gotta get a guy to throw the ball into and not be solely reliant on jump shots. Those teams can only go so far and the Bulls know that.


If we don't find a way to move Hinrich, we'll be stuck with his 9 mil on the cap for 2010. If we for some reason held on to Kirk....then we'd have to let Tyrus walk in 2010 to sign Bosh to make it work inside the cap. It wouldn't be a huge deal considering we'd be getting Bosh anyway...but if Toronto decided to pass on a trade involving Tyrus in '09, I'd rather find a way to keep Tyrus around with Noah and Bosh if we could somehow make that work rather than spend the cash on Kirk. You could either way at this point...but looking into the future, I think it'll be an obvious decision at that time.

I'll be extremely disappointed if the Bulls stand pat this off-season. I'm not saying they need to roll the dice or anything, but a plan to add a guy like Bosh in '09 or wait for '10 has to be in place.

Exactly. You just summed up my entire thoughts on this off-season. I'm perfectly content standing pat if we can't make a trade that lands us a Bosh or star player like that.

I thought about this a bit yesterday...

If you went in to the 2010 offseason exactly as we are now, and you were able to sign Bosh, that would mean you'd have to outright Tyrus to clear the last bit of cap space.

In other words, you'd be doing a straight up trade of Tyrus for Bosh, in some sense, on your roster. It'd cost you some cap space, but you wouldn't lose anything else.

That's not the worst trade I've ever heard.

Although, it does require we lose Gordon this offseason.

This may be just a wild idea, but is there any possibility that JR Smith doesnt return to denver this offseason? What if we dumped Gordon and picked up Smith?

I doubt we'd be interested. Remember that Pax shipped him off to Denver for two 2nd round picks right after we acquired him in the Chandler deal.

Tim Thomas says hi.

We essentially acquired Tim Thomas' salary, we're not exactly expecting him to play a major role on the team.

Apparently the Heat are looking to make a trade to get a first round pick this year. I don't really know what we could get out of them for one of ours