It was brought up on "That other board" that Deng hasn't really been the slasher of old his last few years, and with Rose bound to lose a step or 2 I think the Bulls need to add someone else that can drive to the basket.

Tyreke Evans name was brought up before but it was in a trade with the #5 for Noah, and no one wants that. There was also another trade rumor involving Deng for the 5 and Garcia, so if the rumors hold any water they're interested in Deng. Does adding Watson and #29 to the Deng deal get you Evans and the 5 instead of Garcia??

Am I right in thinking they need another guy that can drive to the rim?

What's wrong with Tyreke Evans? Hot damn he's been a very productive player to give up both him and the 5 for Luol Deng

Sac Town seems to like Thomas and Thornton more than him and they're not gonna pay him. The rumor was Noah for Evans and the 5 so how much more value does Noah have?? If the Bulls can resign Evans I wouldn't be against including the Bobcats pick as well.

The rumor was Deng + Cats pick + Taj for Evans & 5. I've not seen anywhere where it sas Noah for Evans and 5.

Seen the Noah for Evans and 5 over on the mothership (soxtalk), I assumed whoever posted it got it from somewhere.


Hmmm that trades rather intriguing. Looking at nbadraft.net they have guys like Fab Melo, Draymond Green(If you consider him a PF), and Drew Gordon there at 29 to take Tajs place. Or maybe you can pair #29 with one of CJ, Kyle, or Brew to move up a few spots to grab a guy like Perry Jones, whos draft stock is plummeting for whatever reason. Perry Jones under the coaching of Thibs could be a monster!

If you can add one sure starter, Evans, who offensively will at least match Dengs production, and add another potential starter in a guy like Barnes, Gilcrest, or Beal I'd have to think about trading Taj.

I think that's a bit of an overpay, and marries you to Boozer. You're forced into using the picks to replace the players you traded away in all likelihood.

Boozer, while being paid too much, is still a pretty damn good 3rd option.

If they can trade up again with the 29 and somehow get Perry Jones I don't think id miss Taj too much.

I REALLY don't like Evans on the same roster as Rose. He's an inefficient scorer that's a non-factor from 3 and needs the ball in his hands. He's also gotten worse since his rookie year, though admittedly he had some nagging injuries mixed in. He strikes me as a guy that's a better fit putting up stats on a bad team than contributing to a contender (unless you surround him with a ton of shooters).

I wouldn't say they really need another driver, the only successful team with two of them is Miami and Lebron/Wade are arguably the two best in the league. What they do need is someone else that can create their own shot to take pressure off Rose and produce when he is on the bench/hurt/having a bad game while still being able to play off the ball down the stretch and produce.

Since they aren't likely to get a post scorer on a budget, that guy probably needs to be a guard. James Harden would probably be the perfect complement (despite the awful Finals). He is used to playing off the ball and scored 17 a game on only 11 shots this year. He can hit the 3, get to the line and get makeable shots one-on-one. Obviously that would be tough to pull off, but someone in that mold would be a god-send to the Bulls.

Ill bring it up again...Evans was the starting SF for the final 25 games of the season, that usually means he doesn't have the ball in his hands. Also in early March he worked with a guy called "the shot doctor" and proceeded to put up a FG% of 49% in march and 50% in April.

He still averaged almost 15 shots a game and 4 assists in March, that's a guy that has the ball quite a bit. You can still dominate the ball as a wing player, just look at Lebron. In April, pretty much all of his rate stats were down, but he still averaged 12.1 shots and 3.6 assists, that's more possessions used than a lot of PG's. That wasn't a terribly productive month for him either, those were very low point/rebound/assists totals for him. He also got to the line a lot less those last two months, which used to be one of the main things keeping his scoring passable even when he was shooting in the low-40's.

His FG% the last two months don't really mean anything. FG% is generally more correlated with getting shots close to the basket than shooting ability. He was still a complete non-factor from 3 (like 12% on basically no attempts) and April was by far his worst month at the FT line, so it's not like he magically improved his shot significantly. He had several solid to great months from the field his rookie year too, and it wasn't because of his jumpshot.

The bottom line is he's just not an efficient scorer. Even in those last two months, he only got 16.5 points on 14.6 shots and 14.6 points on 12.1 shots. His true shooting %'s his first three years (basically adjusted to include 3's and FG's) were 52.9, 48.2 and 51.2. To put that in perspective, Luol Deng was at 50 this year even with an awful season from the field and was at 54.9 and 53.1 the previous two years. He's not a particularly efficient scorer either.

Given the issue with fit along with the purported price, I don't think I'm feeling it. Slasher or not, like Zoom said it would be nice to have someone that can create. Rip can sometimes get open off the ball...but I'm not sure if that's our ideal plan at this point since he's been so hurt and is only getting older. Harden probably would look pretty good on this team. Maybe we can catch lightning in a bottle in the draft and develop one.

Bulls need a shot creator more than anything else, especially an inefficient scorer like Tyreke.

That's their problem, they pretty much have to find this guy in the draft or take on a highly flawed player while dumping Deng or Boozer. The best combination of fit and availability is probably Kevin Martin, but he's a pretty awful defender and I have no idea if Houston is interested in either of those players. Doing two deals or counting on a FA signing after dumping everyone is a lot tougher/riskier.

I'd much rather err on the side of a shooter though, someone like Evans is going to have fewer touches playing with Rose and it really hurts their spacing when neither guard is a real threat from deep (Rose is okay).

I don't think the Bulls (if Rose had Jesus's hand on his knee) really need a "Slasher" although it never hurts. Their biggest need is what Hamilton was supposed to give last year, a more complete outside player who can help spread the floor out. The best way to defeat the Bulls is to collapse on Rose if he tries to penetrate. Having another slasher doesn't change that...having an extra guy with a midrange game does.

I agree with this. I think Luol, when healthy, will give you enough of that "slasher" look. I think Rip is the right sort of player as well, even if ideally Rip might shoot the three better. We saw some real flashes of brilliance the few times we got to see Rip and Derrick play together, it was especially fun to see them run the fast break together. Rip may be old and oft-injured, but he's still a fast runner.

If you can bring in a Ray Allen, what do you do with Rip? Hope the two can combine for 82 games?

Hamilton is going to be at least 35 by the time Rose is back. Obviously if I could get prime-Rip I'd take that, but that guy is gone. Even then, I'd still like someone that is a bit more of a threat from 3, someone that makes you think twice before helping off him on the wing (yes, I realize that's nitpicking a bit because prime-Rip was great off the ball and usually shot at a good percentage).

Unfortunately, it'd be extremely difficult to find that type of shooter while also having him be able to create his shot with some ability.

I can deal with a guy not being able to create his shot as long as he makes it when Derrick collapses the defense and can defend on the other end.

Well, I don't think they can just rely on a Kyle Korver type is what I'm saying. Someone that can at least occasionally get a good look off a one-on-one situation would help diversify their offense. You don't want to turn into the Lebron-era Cavs where you rely on one guy to carry your entire offense and most of your role players being useless if they're not hitting jumpers.

If you're ranking the qualities you need in a 2-guard (or replacement for Deng if it comes to that), I'd probably rank them:

1) Be an above-average 3-point shooter that can spread the floor
2) Have at least some ability to get their own shot
3) Defense (a little less of a concern to me given the Bulls' strengths right now, though obviously try to avoid a matador if possible)

Thinking about this situation makes me appreciate Deng a lot more. He had improved his offensive game quite a bit before the injury. He is a very consistent finisher around the hoop (not so much from the drive, but the slash and catch) and added the deeper range and even 3 range shot to his game.

I don't feel like he's the outside shooter he was in his 2nd or 3rd year though, he used to just be deadly from 1-2 steps inside the 3 point line. Not the greatest shot but I still remember him being a ton more effective then.

He was slightly better from that range in his 3rd and 4th years (42-43%, hoopdata doesn't have info from before that), but the bigger difference is he used to get nearly 5.5 attempts at the rim instead of 4, or only 3.4 this year. Given he still shoots a fair amount over 60% in the basket area, that has a huge impact on his shooting percentage.

Luol is typically a 40% shooter from 16-23 feet, which is a fair amount above league average. This past season he was pretty terrible from there (35%), which hurt his overall numbers. However, he put up a 54.9 TS% in 2010/2011, which was the second best total of his career. That also happened to be the first year he really started taking and making 3's.

Since he's not likely to get to the rim as much as he did in his 3rd year, those 3's are going to help his efficiency with that extra point. With a percentage on long 2's that's closer to his career norm, he can still be a reasonably efficient secondary scorer.

I feel like the healthy Deng was really able to knock down those threes and like Zoom said, that extra point here and there makes a huge difference compared to the old Luol that would pass on an open three to take that step inside for a deep 2. I would like to think he can keep getting to the rim but having Derrick on the squad in the future will probably result in fewer near-basket touches for Luol, though we may see next year be an exception due to all the injuries and timing of their returns.

Athletes Athletes Athletes! We need more of those guys. The guys that can convert a fastbreak and finish above the rim every now and then. I'm tired of being the Tortoise, give me some Hares!

Shot creators sort of coincide along with the athletic part of it too. What this team is lacking more than anything else is more guys that can create off the dribble and make something happen. There are only so many single-doubles and curls you can run until you get in the playoffs and all of a sudden somebody is in your way and you have to improvise. The Bulls don't have anybody outside of Derrick that can do anything meaningful with the ball for more than 1 or 2 dribbles. That's a bad recipe to win with in the postseason, and it proved costly against a Miami Heat team where their best player can guard our best player, and they can come right back at you and get a good shot off virtually every time late in the game when you get a good dose of Isolation/PnR basketball.

If pure atheticism got you anywhere, Washington wouldn't have sucked so hard.

Shot creation is a totally different thing, and it doesn't have to come from driving. Look at OKC, Westbrook is really their only "driver", but they were an elite offensive team all year. Durant and Harden can both create enough to get and make quality shots, which is more of what they need. San Antonio wasn't exactly a great driving team either (Parker and Ginobili are both solid but not stellar at getting to the rim), and they were the other super-elite offensive team all year.

This is especially true since the Bulls don't have a bunch of good shooters to space the floor like Miami. Guys like Battier, Chalmers and Miller hitting 3's really went a long way for them.

I don't mind having someone that CAN drive, but only if it is part of a game that includes a decent jumpshot. We need a pretty well-rounded offensive player at the 2 or 3. Luol is fine, but not enough as a second option oftentimes. It's great that Booz can score in the post, but I can't say that shot creation is his thing either (at least without more touches, something he won't get with our point guard oriented offense). Do whatever is needed to get a scorer

But I'm not talking about the Wizards. Every team needs different things. Washington's flaw lies in their devoid of talent, so just being athletic doesn't do much for them. The Bulls however, do need a boost in athleticism though to help overcome some of their deficiencies in transition offense and converting on those paint opportunities, where the likes of Noah, Deng, Asik, Boozer and others struggle to finish. How many times have we seen Omer bring the ball down to his waist in times when he could simply just go straight up and finish with a dunk? How often do we see Deng and Boozer get off the ground in crowded situations and finish above the rim? It's usually a soft toss at the basket as they fall backwards awkwardly trying to re-gain their footing.

Point being, they don't get a whole lot of easy baskets, and that could be attributed to a lack of explosiveness and athleticism.



Never said it had to come from driving, but it does often come from making use of a dribble, to which nobody on this team outside of Derrick can do to a larger degree. While Derrick is trying to break down a defense he has Luol Deng on one wing and Rip Hamilton on the other. If they can't catch and shoot, and they have to use more than 1 or 2 dribbles, more times than not, bad things happen. There has to be more ball handlers/shot creators on this team that can break down a defense and get a good shot off consistently.



Again, you're confusing "creating off the dribble" with "driving" like it's a single thing. Durant, Harden, and Westbrook are not only good at getting to the basket, they all take turns handling the ball at any given time and they set themselves up for shots as opposed to having someone else create for them all the time (Like Rose does for us). It makes them a dangerous offense to contend with because those 3 are elite at generating their own offense. The Bulls will never have anybody as good as those 3 as a group, but they need players that you can isolate every now and then or be able to handle the ball from time to time to create a play either for himself or for others when things break down and those off-ball screens for Rip Hamilton aren't working.

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A true #2 scorer that has all those things would be the ideal of all ideals, but that is unlikely to happen unless a major trade is on the way.

Omer is a totally different issue than the other guys. He's also their 4th big man. He definitely sucks as a finisher.

Luol coverts at over 60% when he gets to the rim, Boozer is at a whopping 68% when he gets in the basket area. Noah's percentage is a bit below average, but his problem is when he has to actually make a post move. He finishes just fine on pick and rolls and in transition. You have four guys that play heavy minutes and do just fine in the basket area. Taj finishes very well too, and Brewer does at times.

Those guys struggle to get their own shots outside of Rose, but as a team they get more shots at the rim as a team than most. They were 9th in the league in attempts at the rim, ahead of Miami and OKC.

They don't really need "athletes". Going back to the Washington thing, getting JaVal McGee wouldn't solve their problems. They still wouldn't have any real post players (Boozer isn't really that guy) or anyone but Rose that can get good shots.





That was basically my point, there is a big difference between creating off the dribble and being an athletic finisher at the rim. They definitely need someone else that can get decent looks in one-on-one situations, which is what I've said for a few pages (actually, I guess largely in other threads, but I've said it). They don't necessarily need someone else that relentlessly attacks the rim like Miami. Harden only go 3.4 shots per game at the rim and Durant only got 4.8, but they get a ton of good looks off jumpers.

Even then, there are fit issues. Adding someone like Monta Ellis or Tyreke Evans that needs the ball a lot is going to hurt the efficiency of both them and Rose. It even happened to Miami because they both can't use 30 possessions anymore, and those guys are better than what the Bulls would have.

f*** it, sounds like we need to get LeBron

I'd happily settle for James Harden, but yeah, it's going to be tough. It's hard because they could really use someone that can space the floor and unclog the paint, but also someone besides Rose that can generate some good looks.

They were 9th in the league at attempts but were 24th overall in converting %, which is what I'm speaking towards. In the playoffs this is an issue that can be magnified even more when team's start to care more about the way they defend. Use the 2011 playoff run last year as an example and you'll see the %'s at the rim down across the board. Boozer shot 42%, Noah 40%, Omer 46%. Taj is really the only big that finished at an above average clip. That's not very good, and those are the guys that are supposed to be better at finishing.

I still wonder what difference there could have been if we had a healthy Rip and Rose at the same time. It basically never happened, and likely never will.

One playoff series is an incredibly small sample size, especially since Rose was out.

As for the percentage, Rose actually drags them down a bit. He was at 6 attempts per game at 58%. He and Noah were both down a bit from last year, and those are your two biggest shooters in that area. Rose clearly isn't the problem though and Noah is fine unless he has to do a post move (which is related to their problem with no other shot-creators). They're pretty much always going to have a low-ish percentage overall with him unless they add somone like Lebron that gets 7 shots at the rim at a 70% rate.

That's why I used last year's (2011, not 2012) playoff run when Rose was playing.

Which is still an incredibly small sample and was heavily affected by Rose being pretty bad. Especially with the Heat, they just packed in the defense and dared the Bulls to make jumpers (which they didn't). A lot of teams are going to struggle against that.

Better offensive diversity and another scoring threat will fix a lot of that. Getting guys that can jump high doesn't do as much since they still have to get those good looks. The Spurs were great both overall and at the rim without a ton of good athletes and so was Dallas last year. With this current group that lacks shooters and shot-creators, not so much.

shh...your genius is showing

It's not though, considering the object of the game is to win a championship. You can't have two of your starting front court players shooting in the low 40's on shots near the rim in during a 16 game playoff run. Especially considering those shots are harder to come by. If you continue to blow those opportunities in the postseason, on a team that already struggles to score, chances are you aren't going to win a championship.

You're misinterpreting what I mean by athleticism. You don't have to jump high, but you have to be able to generate good shots, and that often comes from being athletic. Maybe it's not always the case, but generally it is.

It's not like the Bulls are missing wide-open dunks, they miss the shots in those situations because they're not open and have to pull a shot out of their ass. If your offense generates better shots, everyone is going to shoot a higher percentage. Anyone can dunk the ball, the problem is breaking down the defense to get that dunk. The Bulls don't regularly generate quality attempts, and when they do, it's almost all Rose.

As I edited in, look at what San Antonio did this year and Dallas did last year. They don't exactly have mind-blowing athletes across the board, but they were able to get and make shots inside and had very good offenses. The Bulls don't have a very diverse offense right now. Rose is their only real threat on the drive, Korver is their only real shooter.

Upgrade your SG spot and a lot of that changes. If he can punish them if they're pulling a hard closeout/pass overplay or take them off the dribble, the rest of the defense has to help to cover that. If they have to respect his 3-point stroke, they can't cheat into the lane and deter Rose's drive as much. Both of those things force the defense to adjust and opens up opportunities for not just the ball-handlers, but the Bulls' players that the defenders have to leave open in order to help.

The two aren't anywhere near totally related. There are plenty of athletic players that couldn't get open against college players, and there are a number of good shot creators that aren't mind-blowing athletes. Steve Nash has been one of the best shot-creators for years, and he's far from explosive. Guys like Deron Williams, Ginobili and Harden aren't exactly overwhelming physical talents either. Dirk is a highly marginal athlete, and LaMarcus Aldridge and Greg Monroe aren't exactly winning dunk contests. Hell, Durant is the best scorer in the league, and there are plenty of guys that are quicker and can jump higher than him.

I think we happen to agree on the main point but are arguing over semantics. I don't refute with anything you're saying. My point is that those shot creators that we are asking for are usually the guys that have the athleticism to make life easier in certain situations when you have to break down a defense. You're not going to get that out of Luol Deng, Rip Hamilton, Joakim Noah, Omer Asik, Ronnie Brewer, Kyle Korver etc.. I think the way you are interpreting it is that I'm asking for a bonehead like Tyrus Thomas that can jump out of the gym but isn't very good at basketball. I want players that can handle the ball well enough to create space for a jump shot, or drive to the basket and finish around the rim. Right now we only have one of those guys, and we know exactly who that is.

That's exactly what I'm saying though. You don't have to be Lebron James to have athletic traits to your game. Ginobli and Harden aren't Rudy Gay type athletes but they display it differently with their craftiness and histrionics. You can throw Paul Pierce into that category as well. Dirk can shoot over anybody. He's as rare a breed of an athlete as you'll ever see. Durant is much the same way but is far more explosive. Can Deng, Korver, Rip Hamilton and company display any of these abilities?

Yeah, to me "athlete" and "scorer" or "shot-creator" are two different things. The big man thing threw me a bit off too since it's not totally their fault and it'd be hard to fix at this point. Sure, I'd love to find a way to turn Carlos Boozer into Dwight or Bynum, or even taking a step down and going with Bosh or Amare. That seems like a stretch though.

I'm also concerned about floor spacing since I think that contributes to their offensive issues a lot. It'd have been a different series against the Heat last year if anyone could make a shot, but Bogans and Deng just kept bricking everything (though Luol has gotten better). Everything relies on Rose attacking the basket right now, but any smart team either traps him or cheats off the other players to discourage his drive. Someone that could shoot would really loosen up the defense a bit and give them more decent chances at the basket (whether it's a Rose drive, a Noah roll to the rim, Boozer getting a bit closer to the Williams-era pick and roll production, the vintage Deng cut-and-finish that we don't see as much, ect).