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rockren
QUOTE (Balta1701-B @ Aug 23 2012, 09:57 AM) *
If we could have moved Rip, we would have already done so.


We're stuck with Rip for one more year and then we'll make a push for Harden in FA after amnestying Boozer.
Balta1701-B
QUOTE (rockren @ Aug 23 2012, 12:53 PM) *
We're stuck with Rip for one more year and then we'll make a push for Harden in FA after amnestying Boozer.

And after letting Gibson walk, presumably, leaving the Bulls with...I dunno, someone for the MLE at the power forward spot?
ZoomSlowik
QUOTE (Balta1701-B @ Aug 23 2012, 02:46 PM) *
And after letting Gibson walk, presumably, leaving the Bulls with...I dunno, someone for the MLE at the power forward spot?


They wouldn't HAVE to let Gibson walk, his qualifying offer is under $4 million. They'd still be able to match/extend him using his Bird rights, they'd just have to time it so they sign the new guy before officially signing Gibson.

The far bigger issue though is they'd have to find some way to dump Deng without taking ANY salary back. Basically, they can't have 3 of Rose, Noah, Deng and Boozer on the roster and still be able to offer a competitive salary to a FA (don't even try to say sign-and-trade, the Bulls don't have the right assets to make it work).
Balta1701-B
QUOTE (ZoomSlowik @ Aug 23 2012, 04:03 PM) *
They wouldn't HAVE to let Gibson walk, his qualifying offer is under $4 million. They'd still be able to match/extend him using his Bird rights, they'd just have to time it so they sign the new guy before officially signing Gibson.

The far bigger issue though is they'd have to find some way to dump Deng without taking ANY salary back. Basically, they can't have 3 of Rose, Noah, Deng and Boozer on the roster and still be able to offer a competitive salary to a FA (don't even try to say sign-and-trade, the Bulls don't have the right assets to make it work).

Do the math. $19 million for Rose, $14 million Deng, $12 million Noah = $45 million. Now 2 rookies, another $2 million = $47 million. Now, $4 million Qualifying Offer to Taj = $51 million. And then there's a couple hundred thousand roundup in there I didn't count. The cap this year is $58 million.

Even if you cleared Hinrich somehow, if you make that Qualifying offer to Taj and Amnesty Boozer, you're left with $7 million you can offer under the cap. There is no way to make a reasonable offer to Hardin without getting rid of Deng or Noah and taking very little salary back.
ZoomSlowik
QUOTE (Balta1701-B @ Aug 23 2012, 04:38 PM) *
Do the math. $19 million for Rose, $14 million Deng, $12 million Noah = $45 million. Now 2 rookies, another $2 million = $47 million. Now, $4 million Qualifying Offer to Taj = $51 million. And then there's a couple hundred thousand roundup in there I didn't count. The cap this year is $58 million.

Even if you cleared Hinrich somehow, if you make that Qualifying offer to Taj and Amnesty Boozer, you're left with $7 million you can offer under the cap. There is no way to make a reasonable offer to Hardin without getting rid of Deng or Noah and taking very little salary back.


That's pretty much exactly what I said. A far simplier way to put it that I already used:

QUOTE
Basically, they can't have 3 of Rose, Noah, Deng and Boozer on the roster and still be able to offer a competitive salary to a FA.



The problem isn't Gibson, it's the large salaries to Rose, Noah, Deng and Boozer and you can only amnesty one of them.
2nd_city_saint787
Any way we let both Taj and Booze go??? They'd have Rose-Harden-Deng-?-Noah with Teague and Butler on the bench and be at 57 mill.

I'd seriously be ok with Vlad Rad being the starting PF on a team with Rose, Harden, Deng, and Noah...He'd just be a guy to stretch the floor and hit a few 3s...Bulls had the best record with Keith Bogans as their starting SG, with more pieces on the team I think they can get by with Vlad.

So since they can go over cap to resign their own guys, I'd resign Vlad, Naz, and Bell....making the team....

Rose/Teague
Harden/Bellinelli
Deng/Butler
Vlad/Rookie
Noah/Naz


Wanne
I'm of the mindset that if/when Hardin leaves OKC he's going to Phoenix...so I wouldn't get my hopes up too much on him.
ZoomSlowik
QUOTE (2nd_city_saint787 @ Aug 24 2012, 12:09 PM) *
Any way we let both Taj and Booze go??? They'd have Rose-Harden-Deng-?-Noah with Teague and Butler on the bench and be at 57 mill.

I'd seriously be ok with Vlad Rad being the starting PF on a team with Rose, Harden, Deng, and Noah...He'd just be a guy to stretch the floor and hit a few 3s...Bulls had the best record with Keith Bogans as their starting SG, with more pieces on the team I think they can get by with Vlad.

So since they can go over cap to resign their own guys, I'd resign Vlad, Naz, and Bell....making the team....

Rose/Teague
Harden/Bellinelli
Deng/Butler
Vlad/Rookie
Noah/Naz


All of those other contracts still count against your cap figure. You have to have at least 13 players under contract. Even if they're not on the roster yet, the league minimum for each spot is subtracted from your available cap space. Even if they literally had no other players under contract but Rose, Deng and Noah, they would still have another $8.5 mil counting against them. That means the Bulls would already be on the books for over $50 million, and they are committed to guys that make over the minimum already (Hinrich, Butler, Teague and their 2013 1st rounder).

To summarize again, "they can't have three of Rose, Deng, Noah and Boozer on the roster and still make a competitive offer to a FA".
2nd_city_saint787
Can they go over to sign draft picks?? Using the scenario I last posted can they resign Robinson, their own 2nd rounder and (if they can get it) a 2nd rounder from the Hinrich or Rip trade would give them 13 players.

So its Rose-Harden-Deng-Noah-Teague-Butler at 57 (under the cap) then just resign Naz-Bell-Vlad-Nate and 3 draft picks.

Thats the last scenario I can think of, as far as making it happen without trading Deng or Noah.... and I'm probably wrong again....
ZoomSlowik
QUOTE (2nd_city_saint787 @ Aug 25 2012, 12:28 PM) *
Can they go over to sign draft picks?? Using the scenario I last posted can they resign Robinson, their own 2nd rounder and (if they can get it) a 2nd rounder from the Hinrich or Rip trade would give them 13 players.

So its Rose-Harden-Deng-Noah-Teague-Butler at 57 (under the cap) then just resign Naz-Bell-Vlad-Nate and 3 draft picks.

Thats the last scenario I can think of, as far as making it happen without trading Deng or Noah.... and I'm probably wrong again....


Read my last post again, I already explained why they wouldn't have enough space to sign a free agent in that scenario. You can't just ignore the salaries for the rest of the roster spots.

Here's another way to word it. Read questions 36 through 42.

They're not going to be remotely close to a competitive offer in any scenario that involves keeping three of Rose, Deng, Noah and Boozer. Even if it's just Rose and Noah, they'd be pretty much screwed if they were forced to make a decision on matching a qualifying offer for Taj before they can get Harden.
2nd_city_saint787
QUOTE (ZoomSlowik @ Aug 25 2012, 07:54 PM) *
Read my last post again, I already explained why they wouldn't have enough space to sign a free agent in that scenario. You can't just ignore the salaries for the rest of the roster spots.

Here's another way to word it. Read questions 36 through 42.

They're not going to be remotely close to a competitive offer in any scenario that involves keeping three of Rose, Deng, Noah and Boozer. Even if it's just Rose and Noah, they'd be pretty much screwed if they were forced to make a decision on matching a qualifying offer for Taj before they can get Harden.


That last scenario didn't include keeping Taj. You're response to that was they need 13 players, so in response to that I asked can they go over the tax to sign their draft picks...which upon further "thinking" I think they can, there are 12 teams over the cap and I know those teams sign their draft picks.

IF they can get rid of Kirk for a 2nd rounder in next years draft and resign Naz, Bell, Nate, and Vlad they'd have 13 players...(and a hole at PF but with the other 4 starters being able to pick up the slack)

Rose/Teague/Robinson
Harden/Bell
Deng/Butler/2nd Rounder
1st Rounder/Vlad (again I'd be fine with Vlad starting just as a big who can stretch the floor)
Noah/Naz/2nd Rounder

ZoomSlowik
QUOTE (2nd_city_saint787 @ Aug 25 2012, 11:05 PM) *
That last scenario didn't include keeping Taj. You're response to that was they need 13 players, so in response to that I asked can they go over the tax to sign their draft picks...which upon further "thinking" I think they can, there are 12 teams over the cap and I know those teams sign their draft picks.

IF they can get rid of Kirk for a 2nd rounder in next years draft and resign Naz, Bell, Nate, and Vlad they'd have 13 players...(and a hole at PF but with the other 4 starters being able to pick up the slack)

Rose/Teague/Robinson
Harden/Bell
Deng/Butler/2nd Rounder
1st Rounder/Vlad (again I'd be fine with Vlad starting just as a big who can stretch the floor)
Noah/Naz/2nd Rounder


Just read the link I posted. It explains why they wouldn't be able to sign Harden.

I'll even post the cliff notes version...

Rose+Deng+Noah= $42 million (and that number might be low, my other usual site has $44 million)
Butler+Teague+2013 first rounder= $3 million (minimum)
cap holds for the other 6 roster spots at the league minimum= $5 million (I thought it was 13 spots, but that link says 12, so I'm not totally sure. Definitely at least 12)

Total salary cap figure= about $50 million

So after using the amnesty on Boozer, renouncing Taj, dumping Hinrich somehow, and making sure you have no cap holds over the league minimum for those other roster spots (meaning you couldn't keep Bird rights on those players), you'd still have to convince Harden to sign for $8 million (or maybe less).

The roster you posted isn't remotely possible. Going over the cap to sign your own guys is a separate issue since you're trying to add a new player.
2nd_city_saint787
What a fancy thread title...So they cant sign Harden first then resign their guys right? Once Naz, Bell, Nate, and Vlad hit FA the bulls can no longer go over to resign them...because thats all I'm saying.

You at least know where I'm coming from and don't think I'm dumb right lol.

I also realize it may be hard to convince all 4 of those guy to not sign a contract elsewhere when they hit free agency.

ZoomSlowik
QUOTE (2nd_city_saint787 @ Aug 26 2012, 09:58 PM) *
What a fancy thread title...So they cant sign Harden first then resign their guys right? Once Naz, Bell, Nate, and Vlad hit FA the bulls can no longer go over to resign them...because thats all I'm saying.

You at least know where I'm coming from and don't think I'm dumb right lol.

I also realize it may be hard to convince all 4 of those guy to not sign a contract elsewhere when they hit free agency.


No, in fact they can't even sign Harden for anything close to the deal he'll get that starts at $14 mil, which you would know if you actually READ. lolhitting.gif
2nd_city_saint787
Lol Ive read all your posts, I just didn't read whatever link you posted....Until now, damn. I was looking for that loophole they talked about....It made sense to me till I read that, I apologize for wasting your time...I tried to stump The Slowik....


So heres hoping Deng and Butler have a good year to justify the trading of Deng.
ZoomSlowik
QUOTE (2nd_city_saint787 @ Aug 26 2012, 10:26 PM) *
Lol Ive read all your posts, I just didn't read whatever link you posted....Until now, damn. I was looking for that loophole they talked about....It made sense to me till I read that, I apologize for wasting your time...I tried to stump The Slowik....


So heres hoping Deng and Butler have a good year to justify the trading of Deng.


There aren't that many places they'd be able to move him since the Bulls couldn't take any significant salary back and still have room for a free agent. They'd need someone that is far enough under the cap to absorb his entire deal. Plus all those teams are going to be trying to get the better free agents themselves. By the time one of those teams gave up their dreams and settled on Deng, all the good free agents would probably be gone.

2015 is far more likely since Deng's contract would just expire by then, though they'd still need some roster management to have any space (obviously Boozer would have to be amnesty'd, they'd either have to renounce Deng or sign him to a huge discount to clear that massive cap hold, and Gibson could be an issue depending on what happens the next year-plus with his contract).
2nd_city_saint787
You think the Magic would still have interest? Supposedly they were asking about him this offseason but thats probably out the window with Dwight gone right?

The free agent market after Dengs gone is filled with aging stars... Theres a few good SFs (Gay, Granger, and Pierce) but I think we're hoping Butler takes that role for cheap. Maybe they grab one of em and move Butler to SG??

SG might be really thin, I can't see Kobe going anywhere, I doubt DWade goes anywhere, though if he doesn't resign I think he'll be a Bull. Hopefully Evan Turner or Paul George hit the market, because past them I don't see any good options.

PF is interesting if they don't resign Taj. Dirk could be a real fun option but I'd rather wait another year and get Love.

In a perfect world they'd get George or Turner then Love the following year if at all possible. Rose-George-Butler-Love-Noah would be fun stuff.


Jake
The key to a successful franchise is getting some team to make a deal that is clearly in your favor. See the LA Lakers, Miami Heat
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