Ok I won't comment or anything answering my post(just too long and to tiresome to do so), but as I see again Marion proposals, here is my idea(regardless people upset by Marion trade prospects). We will have to make some changes anyway( we have guys to sign and the luxury tax is coming if we remain unchanging, also some weaknesses to deal with), trading Marion might not be the best solution as I said before though(and don't make me wrong I want to keep the Matrix(always said how he was great and valuable for us despite what have been saying his detractors) thereby I would only consider trading him if I was suns' GM for a big team improvment and to solve our financial problems...) :


Suns:
in: Chandler, Varejao, Nocioni, Duhon, Bulls #16 pick(to draft Simmons)
out:Marion, K Thomas, Barbosa, Jones, Grant, Lakers #21 pick
Suns draft: Simmons(#16), Ager(own pick)

Bulls:
in: Marion, Ilgauskas,Jones, Cleveland pick #25
out:Chandler, Nocioni, Duhon, #16 pick
Bulls draft:Tyrus Thomas/LaMarcus Aldridge/Andrea Bargnani, Brown

Cleveland:
in:Barbosa, K Thomas, B Grant, #21 pick (to draft Armstrong:comparision Frye)
out:Ilgauskas, Varejao, #25 pick
Cavaliers draft: Armstrong

Bulls' line up:
Ilgauskas/Allen/Harrington
(Tyrus Thomas/LaMarcus Aldridge/Andrea Bargnani)/Marion/Sweetnay
Marion/Deng/Jones
Gordon/Deng/Pargo
Hinrich/Brown

Cleveland's line up:
K Thomas/Armstrong/Grant
Gooden/Armstrong/Grant/James
James/Marshall/Pavlovic
Hugues/Barbosa/Pavlovic
Barbosa/Snow/Murray

sun's line up:
Chandler/Varejao/simmons
Stoudemire/Nocioni/Simmons
Diaw/Nocioni/T2
Bell/Ager/Diaw/House
Nash/Duhon/House

Discuss i personaly i like the trade also who should we draft out of those three?

no freaking way. first of all, Never trade within the division. 2nd, Noch is more valuable than any player being traded for on any of those teams.

i just got this for a message board in realGM so i did not think this one up

This is getting WAAAAAAAYYYYY out of control.

The Matrix >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nocioni

i thought that to they call them the matrix when they are not even the best team.

Shawn Marion is the Matrix and he is 1000X better than Nocioni.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^X100

First off, that trade has way too many players involved to actually get done. 2nd of all, Nocioni is NOT the best player in the deal. It is Marion, then Ilgauskas. This will never happen. Ever.

Nah Iglauskis isnt going to be in the league much longer..... a couple years ago even last year id agree... but now i rate Noch above him. But yeah this was one of the dumbest deals ive seen proposed on this board.

Chill out, Bulls 91 posted it from someone else.

The Suns wouldnt do that in a million years.

Noch is in his 2nd year...Marion is older and in decline. Dumb trade. Besides he is an undersized pf. bad bad trade.

You are high and I am cereal.

You're really high on some players, and really low on some...

Anyways, Matrix older and in decline? decline already?...
Matrix is waaaayy better than Noc... noo argument here. Period.
Marion was born in '78, Noc on 79'.... Not a huge difference there...
And Marion is really a SF... not an undersized PF...He just plays that position because of the players they have right now, and the coach...

Uh huh, and this is not to mention that Andres Nocioni is an undersized PF as well. How can you use it against Marion when the same thing applies to Noc?

This trade will never happen.

And I wanna learn how to shoot like Marion.

That is one of the funkiest shots I've ever seen. How he converts any of those is anyone's guess.

Simply put your arms down at your sides then hammer 8" nails into each elbow. When you go to shoot a jumper you'll keep your hands low and in time you'll condition yourself to shoot just like Shawn.

why would you trade one for the other then? especially when Noch is on his way up and Marion is in decline?
makes no sense.

You realize Noc is only about 1 year younger than Marion?

And when you say Marion is declining you mean having the best season of his career right?

Can you actually give us some evidence that Marion is in decline?

Here's his PPG from 2001-2006
19.1
21.2
19.0
19.4
21.8

Minutes
3,109
3,373
3,217
3,146
3,263

FG%age
.469
.452
.440
.476
.525

Reb/game
9.9
9.5
9.3
11.3
11.8

Yeah, not to mention the fact that he has become an elite defender. He was good before, but not this good.

The guy is just a freak of nature. A major championship piece.

thankyou god it is from realGM

This made my head hurt reading it. Dude...trades like that with that many players just don't happen.

Im not exactly sure what ur trying to say.... Are u saying that both Marion and Noc are undersized PF?..... Marion has been a SF... except like the last 2 years i believe... (because of the coach, players, and their system of playing)And if u did not mean this, then im sry, and disregard my post....

YES MARION IS A SMALL FOWARD. Can he play PF and get away w/ it? yes... But its not the best move to keep him there forever if u want to get far and win a championship.... usually when a team plays small ball... they usually do that to score a lot of points... (like the suns) As far as defense goes... i think it is better if a team has some height in the front line.... defensive teams usually have some bulk, and some height in the paint... And marion doesnt have neither... and thats a reason why Suns arent known as a defensive team... because they try to outscore a team, not D em up.... And DEFENSE WINS WHAT?- Championships

And its okay if a player can play multiple positions... thats awesome actually... its always good when a player can create mismatches... but its not always good to start a player when he's not meant to play there... (like Marion)

Noc and Marion should be playing SF most of the time... and yeah its okay if they play PF... but it only works sometimes... And another example is Al Harrigton... he starts as PF... and look at whats going w/ that team... do they play defense?...

Yeah, both Nocioni and Marion are oversized out of the 3 slot, and undersized at the 4.

Oversized?... Marion at 6'7 is oversized?... can u explain more please?...

Sure. Height matters, but not as much as people think. I mean, look at Tyson Chandler. He's 7'1, and he's an undersized C. Shawn Marion is a stocky dude who thrives (defensively) in the mid-range. He is not necessarily cut out to chase people out on the perimiter, nor is he cut out to stop people in the paint. He's a monster in that 6 to 18 foot range.

I can say the same about Ron Artest, another guy who is stocky as hell out of the 3.

Didn't you know you have to be under 6 feet tall to be a SF?

Haha, Peja Stojakovic is 6'10...almost 7 freaking feet tall! And he is one of the purest shooters in the NBA. Please.

Let me brealk this down...

1st, Marion > Nocioni

2nd, Marion is steadily becoming on of the top players in the NBA. Nocioni is an above average player in the NBA.

3rd, this trade has too many players involved to even be considered.'

4th, Marion > Nocioni.

Elton Brand is actually a hair under 6'7 (I don't care what his listed height says), but he is a PF through and through because of his strength, which is mancrush-worthy.

He always had the frame to put on a good amount of bulk. If you saw him without his shirt on, you'd be impressed.

But Brand's offensive game is more finesse than beef. When it comes to rebounding, he utilizes his strength, and then some.

Im still confused... Marion is not good at defending SF's?.... And Artest is not good at defending SF's either?... even if they are way back by the perimeter?... They are oversized?

Artest is the best in the league at guarding SFs and arguably the greatest defensive SF in NBA history (w/ the obvious exception of Scottie Pippen). But he is still a tad oversized at that slot. He's a cross between a 3 and a 4, just like Marion.

When you think SF, think quickness and utility, not beef. Luol Deng is an SF through and through. Shawn Marion can pick him up and throw him like Marino used to throw passes to Mark Duper.

Marion has got to be one of my top 5 favorite players in the league. Awesome to watch.

I understand Artests... he's a pretty strong guy... and i can see why you say he has a body of a 3-4 guy... he's not overly athletic, compared to guys like scotty.... But he does have quick feet to move for defense...

And i dunno bout you, but when i thought of a small foward... I always thought an athetic, but not too much, not the best, tall(about the 6'7-6'9 or even 6'10 if super athletic) kinda body(like Luol Deng) that can hit shots from the outside.

And when i think of a SF, i do think a little beef. (like a Richard Jeffereson kinda body, Bruce Bowen, Nocioni, Deavan George, Paul Pierce, Peja, where the guys have the body to post up a little bit here and there....Can post up shooting guards, yet can drive past PFs.... Are all of those players oversized SFs too?) When i think of a SG, thennnn i think of an athletic guy w/ not much beef.

And Shawn Marion.... Are we talking about the same Marion over here?? Have you ever seen his body?? The guy doesnt look very strong... he's got some guns.... but i think Pippen had bigger guns then that guy... And IMO, Marion is a pretty athletic guy. I see him flying in the air like every game and throwing down Alley-oops... how bout you?

I dont think you can convince me that Marion is an oversized SF....Anybody else w/ me??

Artest and Matrix are not oversized for the 3.

Scottie Pippen is your prototypical Small Forward. Period. It doesn't matter. Marion is a bit oversized to be a SF because of his bulk, but his low post skills make him a doule threat so it's a moot point. Artest on the other hand, is a pure SF IMO. He can shoot, drove, post up, and play some serious defense. If he wasn't a prick, he'd be recognized more as the All-Star he is.

soxfan1 your no fun as an admin. You need to make that pic of you your avatar again and step down and join us regular people.

You don't think that both guys are more of a cross between a 3 and a 4?

I have both down as 3.5s.

While Marion doesn't have huge guns or whatever, he has some shoulders on him and he's sporting some beef in his hips and thighs. He's a strong man.

And Artest is two gorilla strong. Most of his strength is in his thighs, and I'll bet you that he could bench-press a shitload of weight. You could also play him at the 2 against bigger SGs, as he is uncommonly quick for his size. He's just a freak.

I don't really consider any of those guys to be strong SFs with the exception of Andres Nocioni, and as y'all know, I consider him to be a 3.5 as well.

Here is a short list of players tht I have down as 3.5s.

Ron Artest
Shawn Marion
Lamar Odom
Andrei Kirilenko
Antawn Jamison
Al Harrington
Boris Diaw
Shareef Abdur Rahim
Andres Nocioni
Vladimir Radmanovic
Tim Thomas
Antoine Walker

He is capable of playing a power game on the glass. He has great box-out skills due to the beef in his ass and thighs & his basketball IQ.

It takes a certain mentality, skill-set, and body type to be able to step in at the 4 slot.

Is Shawn Marion a 3 through and through? No. Would that make him a 4? No. The NBA has more misfits than true position players. Hell, just look at the Bulls. We have a true PG (Duhon), a true SF (Deng), and a gang of misfits (as far as our core is concerned). spiff, some people would try to tell you that Deng could play a position other than SF, which is just dead-wrong. He doesn't have the foot speed or shooting ability to play at the 2, and he doesn't have the frame to put on any bulk.

Hey its cool man...dont have to try an convince me that the Matrix is an oversized SF... cuz i wont believe it.... Matrix is a SF to me... He's just a player that can play PF and get away w/ it because he's a good rebounder, is athletic, and playing w/ some guy named Nash....

And i still dont think Marion looks like a guy that can pick up Deng and throw him around... He's not that strong... the only thing i see is that he has kinda high shoulders, (nice Tayshan Prince) and is kinda ripped... I think Richard Jefferson, and Bowen are kinda close to marion's body, except the high shoulders, and yet you dont consider them oversized SFs.... To me, all of those guys are "SF's"...

And hey, i see ur points, but i dont think i can be convinsed that he's oversized... And thats okay, every1 is not meant to agree w/ everything... No problem at all....

"Where do people come up with this spiff?"

Yeah, I know. I was just being facetious.

The thing about Shawn is that, in addition to having a wide upper-torso and big shoulders, he also has strong legs and somewhat sizeable thighs. You know that lower-torso strength is huge if we're talking PF slot. R-Jeff and Bowen can't even begin to approach him in that regard.

If you're strictly comparing the appearance of one upper body to another, then yeah, I could see why you'd think that Shawn isn't all that far ahead of Rich and Bruce in terms of overall strength, but that is really only half of the picture.

ha ha.. Shawn Marion has a PF body....

funny.. cuz i always thought he had a SF body..

the only reason why Marion plays the PF position is because he has a neck for getting rebounds and is very athletic..... not because of his bulk.. c'mon guys... who even said this guy was strong..... its also the system they play.... Marion at the PF spot can spread the floor wide because he can shoot the 3s.... and can drive past most PF in the league....just like Bullies4life said.. that is why they play him at the PF spot....

and i read that Ron Artest is a pure SF?? can drive, shoot, post, and play some serious D... and Marion cant?? .... Ron is not a pure SF... lets look at this way.... If ronny played PF for the bulls.. he would probably avr 19 pts, and like 11 reb..... (just some random numbers on top of my head) - the point here... Ron has the bulk to play PF... and can play the PF postion and avr a double double with ease if he gets the minutes.. no way he is a pure SF.... Artest is a lot more powerful than Noc... a lot stronger...

You obviously haven't read through this thread, because I never said that he had the body of a PF. Either that, or you have some comprehension issues (no offense). I said that he's a cross between an SF and a PF. There, I bolded it for you. I even made a short list of guys who I consider to be 3.5s, just for illustration purposes.

He has the neck for rebounding? Say what? No, he has very good box-out capabilities, mostly due to his respectable lower-torso strength, but also due to a particular mentality that is required to adapt to the 4. Why do you think he finished Top 5 in the league in rebounding out of the PF slot? Because of his neck?

Come on, dude.

In the end, this is all subjective, but it's frustrating to see people dismiss lower-body strength and just focus on the upper-torso.

Hell, I was a 6'0 PF with unimpressive guns that got good minutes off of the bench for my varsity squad in high school almost entirely on the strength of my legs. I started at offensive line for my football team when I only weighed 160. Why? Leg strength. When you overlook leg strength, you sound like one who has never played organized sports. X-Box ain't getting it done.

well my bad.... its just that u said he is a oversized SF.... and i dont see how or why.... and im telling u... the main reason why he even plays the PF position is b/c the system..... if amare was there.... Marion would get less min at the PF position...

hes 6-7 with not a lot of bulk... he cant push anybody in the post... but he can use his quickness....

and the thing about he has a neck for getting rebounds.. he he.....

well i guess its my fault..... i should have written it in quotation marks...

do u watch any football man? (i dont mean this in a bad or mad way) k.... im pretty sure u have... ever heard of "he has a neck for getting those loose balls on the floor when there is a fumble?".... like Nathan Vasher.. Mike brown couple years ago... well.. thats how i meant it... again.. it was my fault.. so i apoligize...

so yeah.. thats how i meant it... Marion has a "neck" for getting those loose balls and rebounds.... hes such an athletic SF that he can jump really high and has a lot of quickness.... (i know that has to do a lot with lower body strenght) and lets just say what im trying to prove here is that Marion has a SF body.... hes not oversized....

the word "oversized" sounds like he shouldnt even play the SF position although he is capable of........ just like Dirk Nowitski played a couple of years b4....

and hey belive it or not.. i do play NBA on xbox..

but i also play bball for fun and played for school a lonnng time ago....

do you mean "nack"