TalkBulls Forums > Mavericks Guards...

Bullies4Life

May 19 2006, 11:33 PM

Mavs have lots of guards..... Terry, stackhouse, Harris, Howard, Armstrong, Daniels, Griffin....

So Lets make a trade and snatch either Howard or Daniels from them

Why?- both are tall, young, athletic shooting guards. And theyre wingplayers

Josh Howard- Mavs are really high on this guy. Averaged 15.6 points, has gotten over 6 boards and shot 47% from the field the last 2 years....So the Bulls will have to give up a good player.... Noc is that player... (just a thought, not saying i would do this...)
-Works out okay because Deng finally gets plenty of minutes w/out really having to share mins, and will develop sooner (more minutes=more experience on the court) AND DENG IS OUR FUTURE.
-Daniels at 6'7 will be able to play backup SG and SF.
-Do I need to say more?

Marquis Daniels- Not quite on Howards level... he cant shoot 3s as good, but he is a slasher, and 6'6 and could use him here... He avrgd 10.2 points this season. I would give up our 16th pic, and what the heck, i will even throw in Sweets to get him.

SO anybody intrested in just one of them?

The Gladiator

May 20 2006, 09:07 AM

Yes, If we can get Howard that would be amazing. Do you think they would do a trade like Gordon and Howard plus 1st rounder? Or what do you think itll take?

Bullies4Life

May 20 2006, 10:14 AM

QUOTE (The Gladiator @ May 20 2006, 09:00 AM)

Yes, If we can get Howard that would be amazing. Do you think they would do a trade like Gordon and Howard plus 1st rounder? Or what do you think itll take?

I actually did think about trading Gordon.... But im not ready to give up on him yet. Ben brings something to the table that makes him special. I think we can be a good team w/ out having a "superstar" like the Pistons. But the Bulls will need a player that can hit big shots (like Billups). So I feel that Ben is needed for our team. Plus the guy has shown that he's a hard worker, and will be a nice complete player later on.

I think it makes sense for both teams by trading Noc for Howard. Howard brings enery and is a tall, athletic guard that we lack right now. Plus I wanna see Deng get lots of minutes and want to see him develop to his full potential.

-Howard would be able to play about 15 minutes at the SG position, and 15 at the SF position.... The guy is still young and has improved his jumpshot a lot over the years. It shows he's a hard worker. The guy can also become a nice defensive player w/ his long arms. He's already pretty good at stealing....

And Noc to the Mavs... Whats can i say about Noc? Who wouldnt love to have that guy? The guy was like our best player this year....

FromWayDowntown

May 20 2006, 10:37 AM

I mentioned something about Marquis Daniels in the "You're the GM JOhn Paxson" thread, it's worth reading again if you want to, it's the Plan B discussion.

http://www.talkbulls.com/forums/index.php?...topic=311&st=15

QUOTE

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ May 5 2006, 06:28 AM)
Tell us what you do this off season. Assume you get the 2nd pick and the 14th pick in the draft and $15 a year in cap room.

Draft:

Assume Portland will take Tyrus Thomas #1, and Chicago has the #2 pick:

"With the 2nd pick in the 2005 NBA Draft, the Chicago Bulls select, LaMarcus Aldridge, power forward, University of Texas."

Assume Chicago, according to nbadraft.net, still has the #16 overall pick in the first round:

"With the 16th pick in the 2005 NBA Draft, the Chicago Bulls select, Josh Boone, forward, University of Connecticut".

Trade:

To Chicago: Devin Brown, SG, - ex SA and UT player
To Utah: Future consideration pick

Plan B Trade:

To Chicago: Marquis Daniels, 2006 1st round pick, future considerations
To Dallas: Ben Gordon. (With Dallas' low first round pick, select either Maurice Ager from Michigan State, Mike Gansey from West Virginia or Rudy Fernandez from Spain as your backup 2-guard.

Plan C Trade: Darius Songaila for some size at the 2 spot.

Free Agent:
C - Joel Pryzbilla

Your lineup so far:
SF - Andres Nocioni, Luol Deng
PF - Tyson Chandler, LaMarcus Aldridge, Malik Allen
C - Joel Pryzbilla, Michael Sweetney, Josh Boone
PG - Kirk Hinrich, Chris Duhon, Jannero Pargo
SG - Marquis Daniels, Maurice Ager (my pick)

FA signees to round off the team:
PF - Brad Buckman - 2006 NBA draftee from University of Texas
PG/SG - Brad Newley, an Australian draftee for the 2006 draft as well.

Unfortunately, IMO the Bulls will not be able to get an elite-star, but this will add some balance throughout the lineup instead of relying on just one or two players, while Marquis Daniels is an up and coming star out of the Dallas ranks. Devin Brown, just in case of people forgot, was a very valuable San Antonio Spurs SG until he hurt his back in the 05 season, was out for most of the playoffs, and thus made the Spurs go after Michael Finley during the off-season. Either way with Brown in tow and Gordon staying, or else Daniels here w/Ager and Gordon going, the Bulls should now have some inside prescence, Tyson will then go back to his natural position at the 4, Duhon will assume his role as the backup PG, and Daniels or Brown will bring some size at the 2 while also helping both offensively and defensively.

--------------------
D is for......wha???

Bullies4Life

May 20 2006, 12:28 PM

I didnt even realize this.... Good stuff Mr. Downtown. But Im not sure if ur line up is a good enough team to go all the way... Whos gonna hit (or even take) our big shots down the stretch? LaMarcus? Kirk? Deng? Daniels? Ohh wait, Chandler right?

haha im just kidding. I guess maybe Andres, but i dunno if he's the right guy for this.... Anyways, I think thats a big question mark... And we have to make a Championship team, not a good team. Thats why i say we need to keep Ben Gordon, and not give up on him just because he's short. Gordon has saved our buts in soo many games in the last 2 seasons. And we have to understand that just because he's short, doesnt mean he cant play and get the job done. Wait till Gordon is in the league for 5-6 seasons, and this guy could be scary. I say lets not give up on him too soon.

ZoomSlowik

May 20 2006, 02:30 PM

I have a hard time believing that they'll give up either of those two players. Both are young, cheap, solid all-around players. They're also generally key players (not as much in the playoffs so far) because Terry is more of a combo at 6'1". If anyone were to go, I'd imagine it would be Stackhouse because he's older and more expensive.

I like both players however, and would like to get one of them. We'd need to add someone to make up for the loss of outside shooting prowess if we dealt Gordon. Trading Deng or Nocioni for one of them wouldn't really be an improvement, so that wouldn't make much sense for us. Our picks might interest the Mavericks because they don't really need immediate help. However, #16 might not be enough.

Bullies4Life

May 20 2006, 03:36 PM

QUOTE (ZoomSlowik @ May 20 2006, 02:23 PM)

I have a hard time believing that they'll give up either of those two players. Both are young, cheap, solid all-around players. They're also generally key players (not as much in the playoffs so far) because Terry is more of a combo at 6'1". If anyone were to go, I'd imagine it would be Stackhouse because he's older and more expensive.

I like both players however, and would like to get one of them. We'd need to add someone to make up for the loss of outside shooting prowess if we dealt Gordon. Trading Deng or Nocioni for one of them wouldn't really be an improvement, so that wouldn't make much sense for us. Our picks might interest the Mavericks because they don't really need immediate help. However, #16 might not be enough.

I agree w/ most of what you said. And im w/ you, im not sure if they would let one of them go...

But i think if we offered Noc for Howard, then maybe it could work... And we can even throw in our 16th if we need to.

-And i somewhat agree, but also somewhat disagree about, "Trading Deng or Nocioni for one of them wouldn't really be an improvement, so that wouldn't make much sense for us. "

-I think Howard can help us out right now, and for the future in a lot of ways... The Bulls really lack a tall, athletic, defensive minded guard. They will need a player like this in the future. And ive heard pax say many times that we need to get more athletic. Anyways, Howard can do most of that for us. And plus the Bulls lack a true "Wingplayer"....

For the Mavs-

-Mavs get Nocioni... The guy that you love to hate unless he's on your team. The guy that gets under other people's skins. The guy that takes charges, and plays defense. I think Avery Johnson would love to have a player like this. Plus Noc is a good spot up shooter. And also, do the mavs really have like a "true" SF? Stackhouse maybe?.... 6'5 Griffin? I guess they do, but i think that Noc will fit in perfectly. And i bet Avery wants to make the Mavs one of the best defensive teams. Im sure thats one of his goals, just like Scott Skiles... Cuz Defense wins campionships.... And Noc will fit in perfectly

The Dude Abides

May 20 2006, 10:36 PM

No way I give up Noch for anyone on that team other than Nowitski and that's not happening.

Noch almost averaged a double double in the playoffs against a superior team. Giving him up is rediculously stupid. He is the best player on this team and will be even better next year. As much as everyone here loves to slurp Deng, Noch is better in every facet of the game than Deng and will have a better nba career.

Bullies4Life

May 21 2006, 01:42 AM

QUOTE (The Dude Abides @ May 20 2006, 10:29 PM)

No way I give up Noch for anyone on that team other than Nowitski and that's not happening.

Noch almost averaged a double double in the playoffs against a superior team. Giving him up is rediculously stupid. He is the best player on this team and will be even better next year. As much as everyone here loves to slurp Deng, Noch is better in every facet of the game than Deng and will have a better nba career.

I hate to break it to you man, but this is almost as good as Nocioni is gonna get... He's pretty much in his prime. The guy has been playing basketball for a while now (Argentina). So is he gonna still be better next year? Maybe a little... but not much tho...And if you remember, Noc posted up some nice numbers while playing PF. That was mostly at the end of the season. We should get some better front court players next year, so i dunno if Noc is gonna be playing a lot of PF next season and posting the numbers he posted at the end of the season....

And Noc is going to have a better NBA career then Deng? Sinse when? Please explain why you think that.... What makes you so sure of this? I can tell you a bunch of reasons why Deng could be better... but i want to hear what you think first.

And yes i agree w/ you that Noc is a very good player, and right now he's our best player. But if you want to get a good player, then you have to trade a good player. And Howard makes a lot of sense for us right now. And keep in mind that he's still gonna get better. And another thing.... we would be a much more complete team if we had Howard. That being i said, i woudnt mind at all keeping noc, and then trying to trade for Daniels instead, cuz Noc fits in really good w/ our team also....

ZoomSlowik

May 21 2006, 08:26 PM

QUOTE (The Dude Abides @ May 20 2006, 10:29 PM)

No way I give up Noch for anyone on that team other than Nowitski and that's not happening.

Noch almost averaged a double double in the playoffs against a superior team. Giving him up is rediculously stupid. He is the best player on this team and will be even better next year. As much as everyone here loves to slurp Deng, Noch is better in every facet of the game than Deng and will have a better nba career.

Ugh. First off, please stop using 6 games as evidence of his talent. 8.8 rebounds isn't almost 10, he needed another 7 in the series to reach that. Also, he did it against a lax defensive team that has mediocre rebounding (only Shaq and Haslem average over 6 a game). Unless it's against Detroit, he needs to do a little more to really impress.

Second, a comparison between the players that have been mentioned over the course of an entire season instead of a very small sample size:

Nocioni- age 26
stats- 13 points, 6.1 rebounds, 1.9 assists, .49 steals, 1.5 to, 46.9 FG, 39.1 3%

Deng- age 21
stats- 14.3 points, 6.6 rebounds, 1.9 assists, .92 steals, 1.3 turnovers, 46.3 FG, 26.9 3%

Howard- age 26
stats- 15.6 points, 6.3 rebounds, 1.9 assists, 1.15 steals 1.3 turnovers, 47.1 FG, 42.9 3% (on a lot fewer attempts).

Despite the fact that Noc has a lot more professional experience than these guys, Deng and Howard are as good or better than him in every category except 3-point shooting.

Noc is decent, but he's not exactly a world-beater. He's a #3 option on a good team at best.

Kalapse

May 21 2006, 08:49 PM

QUOTE (The Dude Abides @ May 21 2006, 04:29 AM)

No way I give up Noch for anyone on that team other than Nowitski and that's not happening.

Noch almost averaged a double double in the playoffs against a superior team. Giving him up is rediculously stupid. He is the best player on this team and will be even better next year. As much as everyone here loves to slurp Deng, Noch is better in every facet of the game than Deng and will have a better nba career.

Would you trade Nocioni for Dwayne Wade right now?

sport1016

May 22 2006, 12:06 PM

What about expanding the trade a little more. I don't like giving up noc for just josh howard who, while good, hasn't really been better than him. I Think Noc may have a higher ceiling than him bc even though they are the same age noc has ONLY been in the league for two years. We are also looking for a veteran center with bullk, and the mavs happen have the luxury of two interchangeable parts in desagna diop and erik dampier.

What about a bigger trade for Dampier and Howard?

What would it take to get them?

Bullies4Life

May 22 2006, 01:09 PM

QUOTE (sport1016 @ May 22 2006, 11:59 AM)

What about expanding the trade a little more. I don't like giving up noc for just josh howard who, while good, hasn't really been better than him. I Think Noc may have a higher ceiling than him bc even though they are the same age noc has ONLY been in the league for two years. We are also looking for a veteran center with bullk, and the mavs happen have the luxury of two interchangeable parts in desagna diop and erik dampier.

What about a bigger trade for Dampier and Howard?

What would it take to get them?

I dunno bout Dampier... He has a big contract, and i guess he plays kinda like Chandler. He also has a hard time catching the ball sometimes, like TC. Altho i do agree we could use a big body down low, i dunno if id go for him.
And about Howard, i just think he would make the bulls a more complete team. We get our tall guard, and a wingplayer. Something the Bulls really lack.

sport1016

May 22 2006, 03:39 PM

I just feel like josh howard is an older and shorter deng with a lower ceiling

If Deng was a better 3pt shooter there would be no need for howard at all. I would rather give up a little 3pt shooting % than give up noc.

Bullies4Life

May 22 2006, 07:57 PM

QUOTE (sport1016 @ May 22 2006, 03:32 PM)

I just feel like josh howard is an older and shorter deng with a lower ceiling

If Deng was a better 3pt shooter there would be no need for howard at all. I would rather give up a little 3pt shooting % than give up noc.

Howard and Deng are a lot different.... Howard can play SG... Can Deng do that? Can Deng guard SG? Wait who can guard SGs? Kirk.... and maybe duhon?

Howard would make our team more complete by having a guy that can guard both SGs and SFs. No one else can guard SGs right now besides our POINT GUARDS... and i would rather have them guard PGs instead of SGs..... unless of course Ben is out there... Plus we're not talking about a guy who is overpaid and stuff like that... But hey, if we cant get Howard, then we will need a guy that can actually guard SGs.... the question is who will it be....

And one more thing... how many poetential All-Stars do we need in this team?... Howard doesnt need to be as good as Deng... He would just be a guy that can play backup(or start ahead of Ben) SG and back up SF...

BuLLzDoMaIn

May 23 2006, 12:19 PM

i wouldnt mind having howard. But dallas wont trade him. And you have to think that when he becomes a free agent hes gonna get a pretty big contract. Cause Howard is a 17ppg 10rpg 2spg player

Chisoxfn

May 23 2006, 08:00 PM

QUOTE (Bullies4Life @ May 19 2006, 09:26 PM)

Mavs have lots of guards..... Terry, stackhouse, Harris, Howard, Armstrong, Daniels, Griffin....

So Lets make a trade and snatch either Howard or Daniels from them

Why?- both are tall, young, athletic shooting guards. And theyre wingplayers

Josh Howard- Mavs are really high on this guy. Averaged 15.6 points, has gotten over 6 boards and shot 47% from the field the last 2 years....So the Bulls will have to give up a good player.... Noc is that player... (just a thought, not saying i would do this...)
-Works out okay because Deng finally gets plenty of minutes w/out really having to share mins, and will develop sooner (more minutes=more experience on the court) AND DENG IS OUR FUTURE.
-Daniels at 6'7 will be able to play backup SG and SF.
-Do I need to say more?

Marquis Daniels- Not quite on Howards level... he cant shoot 3s as good, but he is a slasher, and 6'6 and could use him here... He avrgd 10.2 points this season. I would give up our 16th pic, and what the heck, i will even throw in Sweets to get him.

SO anybody intrested in just one of them?

If the Mavs win a championship, I'd be hard pressed to see them move one of there guards, especially since they would be the best team in the NBA.

However, I am more than willing to deal Chandler for anyone that is either GOOD or for a future pick or two and his contract to be off the books.

Chisoxfn

May 23 2006, 08:01 PM

QUOTE (The Gladiator @ May 20 2006, 07:00 AM)

Yes, If we can get Howard that would be amazing. Do you think they would do a trade like Gordon and Howard plus 1st rounder? Or what do you think itll take?

If we dealt Gordon for Howard, we'd have to be giving up something else, imo. Howard is a better defensive player and a damn solid 2 guard. He's actually a legit 2, something Ben will never be.

Ben's only shot of having success is being on a team that had a lot of other very good defensive players around him that allowed him to really just pick the lane and than become a scoring machine (and I don't know even than if that would work).