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> Poll the First, You know the options
5/20/08 poll.
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Steve9347
post May 21 2008, 11:23 AM
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QUOTE (rangercal @ May 21 2008, 12:22 PM) *
hmm You really like Hughes?

No but chances are he sticks around if we solve the PF issue with Brand. I'm a realist!
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rangercal
post May 21 2008, 11:31 AM
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QUOTE (steve9347 @ May 21 2008, 05:32 PM) *
No but chances are he sticks around if we solve the PF issue with Brand. I'm a realist!

just checkin laugh.gif
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Steve9347
post May 21 2008, 11:45 AM
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From NBADraft.net

If this doesn't convince you, nothing will...

QUOTE
Who's No. 1: Rose or Beasley?

After seeing the two play as rising seniors in Las Vegas in July of 2006, the talent was unmistakable. And despite considerable hype around O.J. Mayo, they leapfrogged him to 1 and 2 on the NBADraft.net 2008 mock draft.

Beasley has not only been the most dominant college basketball player in the country (averaging 26 and 12), but the most dominant freshman in recent memory. His numbers trump last season's player of the year Durant, and since early in the season, he's been considered the odds-on favorite to be the top pick this year. But a funny thing happened during the NCAA tournament, as folks got to see just how dominant and important Derrick Rose can be to a team, with Memphis coming a missed free throw from winning a national championship.

Speaking to NBA scouts, it appears to be a dead heat as to which of the two should be the first pick. Some still prefer Beasley, while others have swung to Rose. One thing is clear, there's a significant drop-off after the top two selections. Let's examine the pros and cons of both players.

Michael Beasley

Pros: Beasley has the potential to be a 25 and 10 guy at the next level. He can be absolutely dominant offensively as the game comes so effortlessly to him. His amazing body control and aggressiveness allows him to jump into the lane and spontaneously make plays around the rim. His touch is, in a word, special, and gives him the ability to effortlessly score in bunches. His versatility to play physical and score inside or on the perimeter gives him a ton of offensive potential.

Beasley's combination of agility and strength is extremely rare. He often rebounds missed shots way out of his position using his phenomenal body control and soft hands to tip the ball to himself. Beasley has a man's body at 18 years of age and seems to enjoy contact.

Forcing someone like him to play two years of college (a rule the NBA is considering for the future) would border on the ridiculous. His game is NBA-ready now, and he should have no trouble equaling what Durant did this year in Seattle, only with more efficiency.

Cons: Beasley came into Manhattan, Kan. with the reputation of a loose cannon. While he has been a model citizen since arriving on campus showing that he has matured, there are still greater character concerns with him than with Rose. For a player with such immense talent, why is it that he was not asked to come back to play his senior season at Oak Hill Academy?

Is he a player that cares more about statistics and individual accolades than winning? Beasley's decision to attend Kansas State over a team like North Carolina, UConn, or Kansas can be seen as a knock against him in the sense that he chose a team where he could display his individual talent instead of playing for a national championship.

The effortless nature of his game could actually turn into a negative. A number of scouts feel that Beasley could turn into another Derrick Coleman. And while that may not be such a terrible thing (DC averaged 20 and 10 for five seasons), Coleman is seen as a bit of a bust, given the amount of talent he possessed. He seemed to enjoy the NBA life over the competition and striving to be a champion. There is the fear that without proper work habits, Beasley will become just a talented jump shooter, not fully utilizing all of his physical talents.

Beasley's NBA position is also a bit of a question mark. Is he a 3 or a 4? It depends who you ask. While he has the strength to rebound against NBA power forwards and the range to play on the perimeter, he's still on the small side for a NBA PF at 6-9, 235 lbs and lacks the foot speed of most NBA small forwards. He has the talent to play whatever position he wants, but without a clear-cut position, it is a slight detriment. How big a problem this will be is questionable, but it's certainly worthy of consideration in the debate.

Derrick Rose

Pros: Playing the point, Rose will have the ball in his hands, and he has shown the rare ability to run a team and make his teammates better. His speed and athletic advantage allow him to dominate opponents on both ends of the floor. And while Beasley is a solid defender, Rose can absolutely lock down opposing point guards as he showed in the tourney against highly regarded Darren Collison and D.J. Augustin. As great as Rose has been at the college level, his game seems better suited to the pro game where more athletic teammates will be able to fully utilize all of his talents.

With the great success that Utah and New Orleans have found taking point guards high in the draft in Deron Williams and Chris Paul, the value of a game-changing point guard continues to rise. Rose has a chance to be every bit as good as these two, which is a big statement considering both players would rate in the top 10 in value among all NBA players.

One scout told me, "It's a no-brainer, he's a quicker Jason Kidd, but Rose can actually shoot it a little bit." Rose puts such tremendous pressure on opponents with his blinding speed and ability to push the ball up the floor. He has excellent vision and passing ability to set teammates up and is nearly impossible for any guard to contain single-handedly. He has Tony Parker quickness to get by opponents and into the lane, only he's 6-3 and can finish at the rim.

Cons: He's 6-3 and not 6-9 like Beasley. The bigger the player, the bigger their opportunity is to impose their will on games, or so the logic goes. Most of the lead dogs on recent NBA championship teams (Magic, Bird, Hakeem, Shaq, Duncan) have been 6-9 and over, with Jordan, Isiah and Wade being the exceptions.

Rose is not a lights-out shooter and often defers to teammates in the clutch. While he had a big scoring push in the final five minutes of the national championship game to give Memphis a nine-point lead, he still needs to work on his jump shot's consistency and range. He seemed to improve as the season went on, and has a solid shot, but he's not likely to be as big a factor scoring as Beasley in the short or long term.

Coming so close and not winning the national championship. Will this have a lingering effect on his career a la Chris Webber? Rose won't be viewed as the goat that Webber became after the time out incident. Not to mention, Rose's bad habits include eating candy for breakfast, which is a lot easier habit to break than Webber's well-documented recreational activities.

The Choice

Derrick Rose. If the decision is made to take the player that gives a team the greatest chance to win NBA titles, the obvious choice is Rose. The value of being able to impact a game individually as well as enhancing the level of teammates is too much to pass on. Rose also brings a greater impact on the defensive end of the floor, and while he likely will never match Beasley's offensive output, his overall impact on the game will be greater. So many NBA teams are rudderless, languishing through season after season with no direction. When you have a true point guard, like Williams or Paul, you have a team. As great as Paul is, a strong contender for MVP after leading the Hornets to a franchise best 56-win season, Rose has a chance to be as good, if not better.
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ZoomSlowik
post May 21 2008, 12:21 PM
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That's an interesting claim that Rose clearly gives them a better chance to win a title considering that the top-5 point guards since 1990 (Stockton, Kidd, Nash, Paul and Williams) have zero titles between them and the last 3 have all been eliminated. Ducan and Shaq have basically dominated the preceedings recently, though the Pistons did crack the run a bit and Wade was better when the Heat won. Granted Beasley isn't a dominant big man quite along those lines even if he could put up 20-10 for a long time...

Eh, I'm nitpicking, who gives a spiff, they're both awesome. Figure out which one fits your long term plans better and take him.
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RME JICO
post May 21 2008, 09:51 PM
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QUOTE (ZoomSlowik @ May 21 2008, 01:30 PM) *
That's an interesting claim that Rose clearly gives them a better chance to win a title considering that the top-5 point guards since 1990 (Stockton, Kidd, Nash, Paul and Williams) have zero titles between them and the last 3 have all been eliminated. Ducan and Shaq have basically dominated the preceedings recently, though the Pistons did crack the run a bit and Wade was better when the Heat won. Granted Beasley isn't a dominant big man quite along those lines even if he could put up 20-10 for a long time...

Eh, I'm nitpicking, who gives a spiff, they're both awesome. Figure out which one fits your long term plans better and take him.

ZS, that is an interesting take. However, Paul and Williams both carried their young teams pretty far into the playoffs, they just lacked the supporting cast.

I actually think the pick will come down to what the trade market looks like. If they can get better value for guards, then they will draft Rose and look to trade one of their guards. The same goes for Forwards. Either way someone on the current roster is being traded.
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Rowand44
post May 21 2008, 10:32 PM
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I'm a slight lean towards Rose at this point but you can't go wrong either way.
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Cowch
post May 22 2008, 02:13 AM
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A week ago who would have thought we would have this poll?
The fact that the Bulls will be getting one of two extremely promising players that are NINETEEN years old is still sinking in for me.
Anyway, I went with Rose seeing as I think he would make the team as a whole better, but there would definitely have to be a trade if he was the pick.
God this poll makes me smile. I was expecting more of a Love/Augustin or something, not THIS. This is just awesome. wub.gif
I think what's craziest thing to me is that the Bulls are going to be putting their team age down quite a bit after their pick. The Bulls could have a very young starting lineup...a very good very young starting lineup. biggrin.gif
I can't wait for the playoffs to just be over.
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madisonsmadhouse
post May 22 2008, 08:35 AM
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I go with the 25-10 guy in Beasley. The biggest thing the Bulls have lacked since MJ left was a go to scorer. Their offense consistantly breaks down and wasted offensive trips. A guy like that gives you someone who can bail you out.

In reality if I am Pax I put together a package of players and offer it around the NBA for either a scoring PF or a true PG. Which ever one I can trade for, I draft the respective player to fill in the roster.
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Cowch
post May 22 2008, 09:03 AM
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QUOTE (madisonsmadhouse @ May 22 2008, 08:44 AM) *
In reality if I am Pax I put together a package of players and offer it around the NBA for either a scoring PF or a true PG. Which ever one I can trade for, I draft the respective player to fill in the roster.


It's really amazing that he has that option. Next year is very promising. Thank God.
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Steve9347
post May 22 2008, 11:14 AM
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QUOTE (madisonsmadhouse @ May 22 2008, 09:44 AM) *
I go with the 25-10 guy in Beasley. The biggest thing the Bulls have lacked since MJ left was a go to scorer. Their offense consistantly breaks down and wasted offensive trips. A guy like that gives you someone who can bail you out.

In reality if I am Pax I put together a package of players and offer it around the NBA for either a scoring PF or a true PG. Which ever one I can trade for, I draft the respective player to fill in the roster.

Unfortunately two big trade pieces in Deng and Gordon cannot be dealt before the draft.
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madisonsmadhouse
post May 22 2008, 11:54 AM
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QUOTE (steve9347 @ May 22 2008, 12:23 PM) *
Unfortunately two big trade pieces in Deng and Gordon cannot be dealt before the draft.


You still have Hinrich, Hughes, and/or Gooden. you can also put in future #1s at this point.
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heirdog
post May 22 2008, 01:26 PM
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Long-term: Both great players but I think Rose has better long-term potential and a higher ceiling than Beasley. Great bigs are usually more important than great guards but in this case, I think Rose has a blend of size, speed, athleticism and intangibles at the guard position even in the NBA, whereas Beasley is more of a 'tweener that will have his size, speed and athleticism matched by several others at his position(s).

Short-term: Again, both great players. While perhaps, Beasley's stats will look better in the short term, I think Rose has more impact on his teammates and makes the team built around him better than that built around Beasley.

Assuming we have last years team with either Hinrich or Gooden traded away depending on who we draft and key bench players in the rotation:

PG: Rose
SG: Gordon/Thabo/Hughes
SF: Deng/Nocioni
PF: Gooden/Thomas
C: Noah

vs.

PG: Hinrich
SG: Gordon/Thabo/Hughes
SF: Deng/Nocioni
PF: Beasley/Thomas
C: Noah

I'll take the first team. While Gordon and perhaps Hinrich, Deng and Nocioni will get open looks with double teams on Beasley, Rose can create for those guys as well as find Noah and Thomas for easy buckets around the rim. Gooden can be a 15/10 guy without Rose on our team so he could be just as good if not better with Rose on the team. Beasley could be a 20/10 guy or a 25/10 guy but the impact on the rest of the team is far greater with Rose who could easily be a 15 pt/10 asst/7 rb PG with the potential for far more.
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eddog2
post May 22 2008, 07:24 PM
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Let me just add this before Zoom or SoxFan1 do. Those stats you threw out for Rose likely won't happen in year 1. I think he will average somewhere around 13.5+ppg, 7 apg, 2 spg in his first year. That's why I think we should re-sign Duhon and ship Kirk out of here. I think we'll need a solid backup and I'm not sure Thabo will be that at the PG position. I don't want Kirk to stay b/c I don't want him being the starter. For better or worse I want Rose to start every game (barring injury) next season. I don't want any of those Scott Skiles lineups.

In a few years I could see him throwing up Chris Paul #'s with double digit assist totals.
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Chicago Bulls Fr...
post May 22 2008, 07:44 PM
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Its interesting that Chris Paul only averaged 6 apg in college considering he's averaging almost 12 apg in the NBA! I mean, I get it, the fact that the teammates around him are better but that makes me even more excited for Rose as I could see him averaging double digit assists in the future. Rose is also faster and taller than CP3 which is a scary thought to process in your head, knowing his potential to be both a scorer and a passer. IMO I think Rose's offensive game equates more towards Dwyane Wade. They both drive to the basket at will and Rose can hit the midrange J while getting to the free throw line. His defensive game is similar to Chris Paul because he plays the passing lanes so aggressively. I like the point that John Calipari made on PTI this afternoon when he was asked about Rose's shot; He said "There are what, 1,000 shoot arounds you'll go to in a season? If his mechanics are right, like they are, his shot will improve with timing." As long as he knows his limits he can even be a 48-50% guy.
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ZoomSlowik
post May 22 2008, 10:36 PM
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QUOTE (eddog2 @ May 22 2008, 08:33 PM) *
Let me just add this before Zoom or SoxFan1 do. Those stats you threw out for Rose likely won't happen in year 1. I think he will average somewhere around 13.5+ppg, 7 apg, 2 spg in his first year. That's why I think we should re-sign Duhon and ship Kirk out of here. I think we'll need a solid backup and I'm not sure Thabo will be that at the PG position. I don't want Kirk to stay b/c I don't want him being the starter. For better or worse I want Rose to start every game (barring injury) next season. I don't want any of those Scott Skiles lineups.

In a few years I could see him throwing up Chris Paul #'s with double digit assist totals.


Haha, I would have posted something similar to that, except I kind of read that to mean in his prime (I don't think he expects Beasley to go 25-10 as a rookie). Those are roughly the numbers I would have predicted too. I agree, if we draft Rose (which it sounds like we will), Hinrich has to be gone, there's no reason to have a $10 mil backup PG and he should be able to bring us some value elsewhere.

As for Rose, I can see him becoming either a Parker/Davis/Marbury type scoring PG that puts up something like 20 points and 7-8 assists (obviously fewer stupid jumpers than the last two, that's not his game) or the Williams/Paul type true PG that puts up more like 17-18 points and closer to the 10 assist neighborhood. The latter will take a bit more work/development on his mid-range jumper and forcing the true PG thing, though it's far from impossible. Either way you get a hell of a player.
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