Paxson to open contract talks with Deng/Gordon this week, Get it done. Options

[dasox24]

1st of all, the only way a bunch of teams won't be looking at Gordon next year in free agency is if he re-signs with the Bulls this offseason. If Gordon goes into next year as a restricted free agent he's going to get several teams looking at him.

However, not many will probably have the room to sign him. I can think of several teams not including the Knicks b/c they are a given that would love to have a player like Gordon. Many are over the cap. Gordon is a pure scorer and there aren't many of those in the league. Even if you are short, can't play the best D you still can make big money b/c of your ability to put the ball in the basket. Not to mention that lethal outside shot is enough to get average players $6-8 million a year (just ask Kapono).

I think if Gordon is offered a contract around $10-12 per he'll probably sign it. However, if he gets a 5 year $40-45 million dollar offer I think that's when there is going to be some problems with him, his agent, & Paxson.

As for Deng, everyone please stop saying that you could see him getting a "max deal". Deng/Gordon/Tyrus are my favorite players and probably in that order until Tyrus explodes in the next few years. But Deng is no superstar and only superstars deserve max deals.

When did Deng become Lebron? Wade? ect. He's definately not there yet and even an overpaid Rashard Lewis as a example does not mean that any team in the league is going to be throwing max deals to Deng. Max deals are something like 5 year $80 million and even if we had all the cap room in the world (which we don't) there is no way, no way, we are going to pay Deng that much. That averages to $16 million per season. Or it probably starts around $13 and escalates up to $20 for the final year.

Deng could very well get a deal that averages around $13 million but he's not getting $16 per. 5*$13 = $65 million. That's $15 million that can be spend on someone else like Tyrus or Thabo in a few years.

Max Deal. You all have to be kidding right?

Great post. I agree with basically everything you said.

On a side note, anyone have a list of what teams will be far enough under the cap to afford Gordon? It can't be more than 3 or 4. That should give us a good idea of who may go after BG next offseason if he doesn't re-up.

[madisonsmadhouse]

Max Deal. You all have to be kidding right?

I think he will get close to a max deal. I hope you have been paying attention to what players are getting paid in the NBA today, because it doesn't take a superstar to get that kind of money. Hell an aging Ben Wallace who has never averaged in double figures got $15 million a year. If Deng can keep expanding him game at a rate similar to what he has been, which don't think for a second that teams aren't looking at his progress, as well as his potential, and comparing it to his age. I envision Deng pretty easily as a guy who in a less structured system would be a low to mid 20s PPG to go along with 7 rbs and a handful of assists a night. Throw in the incredible defense he plays, and tell me what you would pay that player. Hell look at his statistics on the biggest stage the NBA has to offer, the playoffs, and tell me what what that player would be getting paid? Rashard Lewis got how much money, and the only category he is really better than Deng is in PPG. He sure as hell doesn't play anywhere near Lu's defense, and Deng's offensive game is still not done developing. As a matter of a fact, Deng's playoff PPG and Lewis's regular season PPG were almost identical.

If Deng said he wanted a max deal, you would be an idiot not to give it to him. In today's marketplace, that is the going price for a young, 2nd flight, small forward.

[Balta1701-B]

If Deng said he wanted a max deal, you would be an idiot not to give it to him. In today's marketplace, that is the going price for a young, 2nd flight, small forward.

And remember, the only thing these deals cost us at this point is Luxury tax dollars. We're not going to have cap room for quite some time unless we decide to scrap everything, which would be a terrible idea. And I simply have no sympathy for JR if he starts whining about the team being too expensive after being cheap for 10 years while still selling out the biggest stadium in the NBA and still selling all those #23 jerseys. If the Knicks can afford to have a salary 2x the cap, we can afford to go well over it to make some NBA Finals runs.

[eddog2]

Max deals! Giving Deng a max deal is "smart". You all have to be kidding me.

Yeah Lewis made that much money but it was stupid of the Magic to pay him that much. Seattle sure wasn't going to pay him that. Now Orlando is going to have trouble keeping Nelson & you see what happened with Milicic. They just gave out 2 max deals to Lewis and Howard. Howard deserved it b/c he's a beast and is a C/PF. But Lewis didn't deserve anything over $15.

And there is a difference. Lewis was a "unrestricted" agent. Deng isn't. When you are restricted you sign the contract for less then what you could get in a year b/c you potentially could suffer a career ending injury and there goes you $60 million you could have had. Deng is a good young player and is basically everything you like in a player. Unselfish, hardworking, nice both on and off the court. But he's no superstar at least not yet.

Sure there will be teams that would probably throw out numbers close to the max but not many will. If Deng really thinks he deserves the max then he should sign a 3 year deal instead of a 5 and make around $12-13.5 per year. Then when he's 26/27 he can get a max deal. But you just don't go throwing around max deals.

Max deals to players that aren't stars cripple teams. Just ask the Knicks.

Anyway, Lewis at this point is better than Deng anyway but Deng definately has more upside. Lewis gets more PPG, shoots the 3 way better, & I wouldn't call his rebounding shabby (6.6 a game). If he played on the Bulls he could easily average 7+ rebounds. What Deng does is focus on areas that he's good at. He hits that mid range shot like it's going out of style. And I love him for that. But for Deng to be asking for the max he needs to add other parts to his game. He needs to become a better finisher in the open court, he needs to start hitting the 3 at around 40%. It would also be nice if he raised his FT% to 80%. Lewis shoots it at 84%.

Deng also needs to get more physical and draw more fouls. He only goes to the line 4.3 times a game. Lewis only went to the line 5.25 times per game but Deng still needs to get that number up to at least 6. You do that by driving and being more aggressive.

Anyway, if Deng wants the max deal and we have no choice I say forget about it and trade him for KG or Pau. Let Nocioni & Tyrus shore up the SF spot. Why pay a SF the max when we are deepest at SF?

[ZoomSlowik]

Max deals! Giving Deng a max deal is "smart". You all have to be kidding me.

Yeah Lewis made that much money but it was stupid of the Magic to pay him that much. Seattle sure wasn't going to pay him that. Now Orlando is going to have trouble keeping Nelson & you see what happened with Milicic. They just gave out 2 max deals to Lewis and Howard. Howard deserved it b/c he's a beast and is a C/PF. But Lewis didn't deserve anything over $15.

And there is a difference. Lewis was a "unrestricted" agent. Deng isn't. When you are restricted you sign the contract for less then what you could get in a year b/c you potentially could suffer a career ending injury and there goes you $60 million you could have had. Deng is a good young player and is basically everything you like in a player. Unselfish, hardworking, nice both on and off the court. But he's no superstar at least not yet.

Sure there will be teams that would probably throw out numbers close to the max but not many will. If Deng really thinks he deserves the max then he should sign a 3 year deal instead of a 5 and make around $12-13.5 per year. Then when he's 26/27 he can get a max deal. But you just don't go throwing around max deals.

Max deals to players that aren't stars cripple teams. Just ask the Knicks.

Anyway, Lewis at this point is better than Deng anyway but Deng definately has more upside. Lewis gets more PPG, shoots the 3 way better, & I wouldn't call his rebounding shabby (6.6 a game). If he played on the Bulls he could easily average 7+ rebounds. What Deng does is focus on areas that he's good at. He hits that mid range shot like it's going out of style. And I love him for that. But for Deng to be asking for the max he needs to add other parts to his game. He needs to become a better finisher in the open court, he needs to start hitting the 3 at around 40%. It would also be nice if he raised his FT% to 80%. Lewis shoots it at 84%.

Deng also needs to get more physical and draw more fouls. He only goes to the line 4.3 times a game. Lewis only went to the line 5.25 times per game but Deng still needs to get that number up to at least 6. You do that by driving and being more aggressive.

Anyway, if Deng wants the max deal and we have no choice I say forget about it and trade him for KG or Pau. Let Nocioni & Tyrus shore up the SF spot. Why pay a SF the max when we are deepest at SF?

Well, we kind of agree...

Giving max deals to non-franchise players can definitely be a big-time killer. That Lewis one was a good example, Orlando is in salary cap hell/luxury tax territory because they overbid for Lewis, and it's even worse because supposedly no other team was offering more than about 5-60. Normally I'd agree with you, that a contract like that would be incredibly stupid.

However, I do agree with Balta, in our situation it doesn't really matter. Whether we give Deng a monster contract or we trade him for someone else, we're not going to have any cap room regardless, and with the ridiculous revenue stream the Bulls have had for a LOOOONG time, even when they sucked in the post-Jordan years, the luxury tax should really be a non-issue. That seperates the Bulls from a lot of teams. It doesn't matter as much if we give Deng a couple extra mil because it's not the end of the world if we go over the luxury tax (or at least it better not be, I can't see Reisdorf being THAT cheap). The Knicks have had 5 or 6 bad deals on their roster for quite some time, I think we could manage two (Deng and Wallace).

Also, unlike a few of these contracts given to guys that will likely decline towards the end of the deal, Deng is very young and his career is still on the upswing. Barring a serious injury, he's not going to be a totally useless player that is going to kill cap space AND be untradeable (well, at least for anything useful). Deng won't be a Marbury/Francis/Webber type contract albatross that is a total disaster, he'd be more like a Joe Johnson/Paul Pierce/Jermaine O'Neal type, where you still get solid production, just not at a good price. You can still move those kind of players if the need should arise. And unlike the Lewis situation, SOMEONE ELSE will almost certainly offer Deng a max deal if it comes down to it.

Obviously I don't want to OFFER that kind of money to Deng, but if that's what it takes to keep him I won't gripe too much. If we don't get it done somewhat soon it could come down to matching an offer sheet of that magnitude. Our team makeup changes DRASTICALLY without him, we lose a lot of scoring punch and dependability at that spot. Tyrus loses a lot of his assets if he has to play SF, you take his shot-blocking and rebounding farther away from the basket it lessens his mis-match potential if he has to consistently take NBA small-forwards off the dribble. Plus sign-and-trades are annoying to work out, and they'd be hard-pressed to get good value, you don't have a whole lot of leverage in those situations. You could very easily be forced into making a choice between something like Bibby and Hawes (hypothetical, I haven't looked at their cap situation) or letting him go for nothing.

No, his production doesn't warrant an $18 mil type contract at this point, market value often doesn't match with their true value. The bottom line is that for the Bulls it's not going to matter in the long run if he's making $12 mil or $18 mil, they're still going to be over the cap. The only difference will be how much it costs JR. We don't want to be forced into dealing him for 70 cents on the dollar because someone makes a monster offer and Deng "isn't a max-player".

[madisonsmadhouse]

Max deals! Giving Deng a max deal is "smart". You all have to be kidding me.

Yeah Lewis made that much money but it was stupid of the Magic to pay him that much. Seattle sure wasn't going to pay him that. Now Orlando is going to have trouble keeping Nelson & you see what happened with Milicic. They just gave out 2 max deals to Lewis and Howard. Howard deserved it b/c he's a beast and is a C/PF. But Lewis didn't deserve anything over $15.

And there is a difference. Lewis was a "unrestricted" agent. Deng isn't. When you are restricted you sign the contract for less then what you could get in a year b/c you potentially could suffer a career ending injury and there goes you $60 million you could have had. Deng is a good young player and is basically everything you like in a player. Unselfish, hardworking, nice both on and off the court. But he's no superstar at least not yet.

Sure there will be teams that would probably throw out numbers close to the max but not many will. If Deng really thinks he deserves the max then he should sign a 3 year deal instead of a 5 and make around $12-13.5 per year. Then when he's 26/27 he can get a max deal. But you just don't go throwing around max deals.

Max deals to players that aren't stars cripple teams. Just ask the Knicks.

Anyway, Lewis at this point is better than Deng anyway but Deng definately has more upside. Lewis gets more PPG, shoots the 3 way better, & I wouldn't call his rebounding shabby (6.6 a game). If he played on the Bulls he could easily average 7+ rebounds. What Deng does is focus on areas that he's good at. He hits that mid range shot like it's going out of style. And I love him for that. But for Deng to be asking for the max he needs to add other parts to his game. He needs to become a better finisher in the open court, he needs to start hitting the 3 at around 40%. It would also be nice if he raised his FT% to 80%. Lewis shoots it at 84%.

Deng also needs to get more physical and draw more fouls. He only goes to the line 4.3 times a game. Lewis only went to the line 5.25 times per game but Deng still needs to get that number up to at least 6. You do that by driving and being more aggressive.

Anyway, if Deng wants the max deal and we have no choice I say forget about it and trade him for KG or Pau. Let Nocioni & Tyrus shore up the SF spot. Why pay a SF the max when we are deepest at SF?

I think you are missing one vital fact in your arguement. Players salaries are based on what other players are making. It doesn't matter if you don't like some players deals, the fact remains that when Deng comes to negotiate, you can make damned sure that he is going to bring Rashard Lewis to the table. He is also going to have a nice little comparison of what other players have done at his stage of an NBA career, and when he brings a guy like Lewis and compares his numbers at this stage of his career, you can bet that someone is going to pay him a really, really big contract for that. John Paxson will also recognize this, and he will not let Deng walk away for a few million dollars a year. You can get into nitpicking if you like, and I could nitpick back, but the point remains that Deng's salary will be based on what other SFs in the NBA are making.

[eddog2]

I think you are missing one vital fact in your arguement. Players salaries are based on what other players are making. It doesn't matter if you don't like some players deals, the fact remains that when Deng comes to negotiate, you can make damned sure that he is going to bring Rashard Lewis to the table. He is also going to have a nice little comparison of what other players have done at his stage of an NBA career, and when he brings a guy like Lewis and compares his numbers at this stage of his career, you can bet that someone is going to pay him a really, really big contract for that. John Paxson will also recognize this, and he will not let Deng walk away for a few million dollars a year. You can get into nitpicking if you like, and I could nitpick back, but the point remains that Deng's salary will be based on what other SFs in the NBA are making.

Lebron James $12.45 million ($16.37 in 2010)
Carmelo Anthony $12.45 million ($16.37 in 2010)
Paul Pierce $16.3 million ($21.1 in 2010)
Lewis $15.6 million next year (up to $23.79 his final year)
Joe Johnson SG/SF $13.5 million
Ron Artest $7.8 million (the exception to the rule b/c he's a little crazy)


Josh Howard $9 million ($11.8 in 2010)
Gerald Wallace $7.5 million ($11.4 in 2010)
Teyshaun Prince $8.68 million ($11.8 in 2010)
Richard Hamilton $9.75 million ($11.3 in 2009)
Boris Diaw $9 million each season including 2010
Bruce Bowen (one dimensional) $4.125 million


I really think Deng's contract should be closer to Josh Howard/Gerald Wallace than a Lebron, or Melo. However, Deng should make more than Howard that is why I think he should get around $11-12 million per season. Either 3 year $36 or 5 year $60 but not much more than that. Definately not more than 5 years $65. At $12 million per year that is like $2-3 million more than Josh Howard makes per season. I think that is fair b/c he's not leaps and bounds better than Howard. He is younger and that's why he should make more b/c he has more upside.

Paxson should also be patient and gauge what Andre Iguodala gets paid from the Sixers. However, it might not be a real good comparison b/c Philly basically has no good players and will likely be willing to overpay (and possibly offer the max) to keep Iguodala. 18.2 points, 5.7 rebounds, 5.7 assists and 2.0 steals in a team-high 40.3 minutes over 76 games last season.

Lewis' total dollars are exceeded only by Kobe Bryant's $136 million deal in 2004; Jermaine O'Neal's $126.5 million extension in 2003; Kevin Garnett's $126 million contract in 1997; Chris Webber's $122 million extension in 2001; Tim Duncan's $122 million deal in 2003; and Shaquille O'Neal's $120 million deal in 1996 - all seven-year contracts.)

You can't seriously take that into consideration. Even if Deng's max contract can't be as high as Lewis's b/c he's coming off his rookie contract there is no way you can take Lewis's contract and hold that as the gauge for all small forwards from here on out.