Gordon Vs. Sefalosha, Something tells me this thread will have staying power Options

[Balta1701-B]

I think we can call Sam Smith's article today the first shots in what appears to be a war for the shooting guard spot on this team.

On one hand, we have the team's best scorer, Ben Gordon, the only guy who seems able to give us 20 a game on a regular basis. But at the same time, he's only 6'3", is a defensive liability, is having a down season, seems to not be developing like we hoped, and turned down $50/5 last fall so he clearly wants to be paid.

In the other corner, we have Thabo Sefalosha, the Swiss Mister, a seemingly up and coming 2nd year player who is a better rebounder and defender than Gordon but no where near the shooter. But, he's only 1 year younger than Gordon, he started off the season playing horrendous basketball and has only played well for a short stint, and we have no idea whether or not we can count on him long term.

If Gordon ever gets back from this wrist injury, it seems certain that Thabo will remain the starter, because that's what we do with Gordon. But this summer appears to be decision time. Gordon will have the ability to decide whether or not he wants to try to get out of Chicago, the Bulls will have to decide whether or not to make a major commitment to Gordon, and we'll possibly have the opportunity to reshape the team through a few trades.

So, here's your thread for all things Thabo Vs. Gordon. Who should start right now? Who should get more minutes? Who is the team better with? And the biggie...what does this team do with these 2 come the summer?

[ZoomSlowik]

It's hard to say because we haven't seen a whole lot of this team at 100% of late. Personally, I think a Kirk-Thabo-Deng starting perimeter trio with Gordon coming off the bench with some added firepower is a pretty sweet setup if you can get all of them healthy and playing near their capabilities. Thabo likely won't keep the scoring up (no way he gets 11 shots a game if we're at 100%), but his shooting percentage should go up a bit as well, and as long as he's a threat with the defense he provides that's pretty useful. If only you could dump Wallace somewhere and get Noah in there who's at least a bit more of a threat on offense you should still get enough scoring out of the starters and you've got a big time sniper off the bench in Gordon. Of course that assumes that you can re-sign him (I personally doubt anyone comes in and blows him away with an offer we can't/shouldn't match), that he can deal with coming off the bench, and then we don't trade him. That last one is the biggest wildcard, it really depends on what we can get for him.

[cars]

We should look at this from a different level than we currently are. It's more than just a pure numbers perspective in terms of scoring. So:
1. Is Ben Gordon worth a 5 year, 55-60 million dollar contract?
So we'd be paying a guy $12m a year for the following per game averages:
42% FG, 39% 3 PT, 95% FT, 20 points, 2.8 Assists, 2.25 turnovers, 3.4 Rebounds a game.

I like Ben. But he's not worth that amount of money. He's got a very, very questionable hands overall from his ball handling to turnover ability. Let's put it this way, other players in that range of money include: Rip Hamilton, Chauncy Billups, Tony Parker, Steve Nash, Richard Jefferson, Gilbert Arenas, etc. range. Is he that type of player? I don't think so.

2. Kirks play with Thabo.
This really needs to be examined more. So far (and yes, 8 games is a small sample) Thabo in the back court with Kirk makes Kirk much more worth the 11 million per year he makes. Especially since Kirk is great at moving without the ball and Thabo is a much better ball handler. Our defense is much improved as well with Thabo on the court, who is better able to defend 3 positions on the court. I would argue that Ben cannot even guard 1.

3. Potential
I think we've seen Gordon's. He's a low 20's scorer who shouldn't ever start. He's the NBA equivalent to a closer in MLB. He is what he is: A 2000's version of Vinnie Johnson. Johnsons stats are much lower, but that's more due to the era and team style than anything more. Look at his 36 minute per game stats to see what I mean. Thabo on the other hand is just starting to come into his own. Is he a 20's scorer? No. He's a 15-18 per game at most type of player. But he moves well, defends fantastic, and when he starts attacking the rim like he has he's a joy.

4. Overall Value right now
Gordon's got big value to teams in needing of scoring. We could get more in return for him than we can right now for the potential of Thabo. And since we've got holes to fill and 3 players to trade (Noc, Gordon, and Wallace), we need the help in the right area. Packaging Gordon with one of those other players can get us a much more desirable package. And I'm great with that.

[Balta1701-B]

We should look at this from a different level than we currently are. It's more than just a pure numbers perspective in terms of scoring. So:
1. Is Ben Gordon worth a 5 year, 55-60 million dollar contract?
So we'd be paying a guy $12m a year for the following per game averages:
42% FG, 39% 3 PT, 95% FT, 20 points, 2.8 Assists, 2.25 turnovers, 3.4 Rebounds a game.

I like Ben. But he's not worth that amount of money. He's got a very, very questionable hands overall from his ball handling to turnover ability. Let's put it this way, other players in that range of money include: Rip Hamilton, Chauncy Billups, Tony Parker, Steve Nash, Richard Jefferson, Gilbert Arenas, etc. range. Is he that type of player? I don't think so.

2. Kirks play with Thabo.
This really needs to be examined more. So far (and yes, 8 games is a small sample) Thabo in the back court with Kirk makes Kirk much more worth the 11 million per year he makes. Especially since Kirk is great at moving without the ball and Thabo is a much better ball handler. Our defense is much improved as well with Thabo on the court, who is better able to defend 3 positions on the court. I would argue that Ben cannot even guard 1.

3. Potential
I think we've seen Gordon's. He's a low 20's scorer who shouldn't ever start. He's the NBA equivalent to a closer in MLB. He is what he is: A 2000's version of Vinnie Johnson. Johnsons stats are much lower, but that's more due to the era and team style than anything more. Look at his 36 minute per game stats to see what I mean. Thabo on the other hand is just starting to come into his own. Is he a 20's scorer? No. He's a 15-18 per game at most type of player. But he moves well, defends fantastic, and when he starts attacking the rim like he has he's a joy.

4. Overall Value right now
Gordon's got big value to teams in needing of scoring. We could get more in return for him than we can right now for the potential of Thabo. And since we've got holes to fill and 3 players to trade (Noc, Gordon, and Wallace), we need the help in the right area. Packaging Gordon with one of those other players can get us a much more desirable package. And I'm great with that.

Here's my responses, somewhat playing Devil's advocate.

1. Who in the NBA is going to pay Ben Gordon that kind of money this offseason? Right now, there appear to be basically 2 teams with that kind of cap space, although it could jump to 3 if Marion opts out or other teams make some deals. Those teams are the Grizzlies and the 76ers. Beyond that, to get that kind of money, Gordon would have to be moved in a sign and trade because there's just not a lot of cap room out there for people. So, given that Gordon is having a terrible season and is now struggling with injury, if he had to accept, say, a deal similar to what Nocioni got last year because no one else offers him the big money, would that change your mind?

4. Yes, Gordon has big value to teams in need of scoring. But honestly, aren't the Bulls a team in need of scoring punch? We're practically playing 4 on 5 on offense anyway when Wallace is out there, and Wallace's Replacement, Noah, isn't exactly a 25 point post up guy. Hinrich isn't a big scorer. Deng seems so far like he hasn't developed into a number one, go to scoring guy. Thabo may give us 15-18 but he's not going to take over most games with his scoring. The Bulls started off this season historically bad on offense, they're still in the lower part of the league in PPG, and they're dead last in field goal percentage. Gordon has value to teams in need of scoring, and we're one of them right now!

[Chicago Bulls Fr...]

I know this isn't really adding anything to the topic but doesn't it look like Thabo can be a great player just by how he acts on the court? Everytime I see him dribble drive or handle the ball he just screams out to you like he could become a great player. His shot has improved, and he is the second best defensive player on our team next to Ben Wallace (One could argue he's better, but Ben is verrrry smart). In the month he's averaging 12/6/4 but what he also does is he has made Kirk better. In the games Kirk's played with him in he's scoring well above 20 ppg and its because he can actually do the things he does well instead of doing too much. Thabo takes care of the defense and Kirk takes care of the shooting and facilitating.

Thabo has impressed me alot. Its amazing what 35 mpg can do to ones confidence. He's used to playing alot now, so every night he expects to play meaningful minutes which does alot to your psyche (sp?). Now just do that to Tyrus and Joakim and I bet it pays dividends; maybe not in the win/loss collumn but in their development as players. This year is already a lost cause, no need to make the playoffs because we'll get killed by Detroit or Boston so it makes sense to get the most out of our young players.

[TeaLeafReaderII]

I think Gordon's stock is too low to move him now. Let him play out his deal and sign the one year tender unless someone really blows you away. As much as I would love to, I can't forget how terrible the back court was at the start of the year. I think it would be crazy to start getting rid of depth based on a few good months.

I'd hate to see Pax ditch Gordon for pennies on the dollar then see him go to a team with an inside scorer and watch him explode.

[Balta1701-B]

K.C. Johnson chimes in with a piece on this topic.

[eddog2]

I think Gordon's stock is too low to move him now. Let him play out his deal and sign the one year tender unless someone really blows you away. As much as I would love to, I can't forget how terrible the back court was at the start of the year. I think it would be crazy to start getting rid of depth based on a few good months.

I'd hate to see Pax ditch Gordon for pennies on the dollar then see him go to a team with an inside scorer and watch him explode.

I couldn't agree with you more. Right now, I really wish the Bulls would make a deal for Chris Wilcox. I think the Sonic would be more likely now than ever to deal him. How about a PJ Brown expiring contract (for like $4 million), Duhon, & our # 1 pick. I'd do it. And I think it would make us serious contenders. Wilcox would solidify the 4 and could also play the 5. I think we'd get a lot more productivity out of Gordon and we'd also see way more productivity out of Wallace. The best thing about Wilcox is that he is young and doesn't break the bank. He'd also give us a solid option once Wallace contract is up (assuming he doesn't get traded) or we'd be able to part with Wallace and not have to worry too much about being undersized. (Noah, Wilcox, Smith, Tyrus)

Anyway, I really don't want to get rid of Gordon. I think Paxson was very smart when he decided not to make crazy contract offers to Deng and Gordon. He was in a position of strength and he'll be even more in a position of strength at the end of the season b/c there simply won't be many teams that have the cap to offer more than what he offered last summer. There simply are too many big time restricted or unrestricted free agents for anyone to offer Gordon over $10 million. Someone might take a chance and offer Deng a pretty sizeable contract but it won't be anything like what Lewis was offered in Orlando. When it's all said and done, I think we'll either resign both or sign and trade Gordon. If we sign both I doubt that their combined yearly salary will be more than $24 million and I'm thinking it might be closer to $20.

[ZoomSlowik]

Wilcox is a nice piece, he's pretty decent, young, and relatively cheap. I don't really see him making us a contender though, he's a 4th option on a good team at best. He can't really create his own shot, he gets his points on transition buckets, putbacks, and dunks/layups with some space. His defense isn't stellar either, he's not much of a factor as a shot-blocker and struggles against strong big men one on one. He's definite upgrade and wouldn't hurt, but he's not the kind of guy that'll put us over the top. Considering our pick doesn't look likely to produce a stud that's a good fit for the Bulls, that could work out fairly well.

[Steve9347]

Trade Gordon's ass for whatever you can get. It's very obvious Chicago is not in his heart and he's looking for the biggest payday possible (which is fine). The next time the Bulls win the Championship I can guarantee it won't involve Ben Gordon.

Is everyone seriously considering that high a contract for a guy who can't perform as a starter? It's ridiculous.

[ZoomSlowik]

Trade Gordon's ass for whatever you can get. It's very obvious Chicago is not in his heart and he's looking for the biggest payday possible (which is fine). The next time the Bulls win the Championship I can guarantee it won't involve Ben Gordon.

Is everyone seriously considering that high a contract for a guy who can't perform as a starter? It's ridiculous.

Well, I'm personally making the assumption that he's back next year on a one-year deal. I don't really see anyone offering you anything worthwhile for him or making him a massive offer as a restricted free agent. I still wouldn't just give him away because of his scoring ability, though I do agree that paying him $10 mil+ to come off the bench is a bit nuts, assuming he'd even do it without causing problems.

[Chicago Bulls Fr...]

I wonder if teams in the top 5 would be willing to give up their pick for Gordon? I doubt it but who knows...

[Balta1701-B]

I wonder if teams in the top 5 would be willing to give up their pick for Gordon? I doubt it but who knows...

Depends on the team, but I can imagine there might be a few teams up there that would be willing to swap picks if they were to get Gordon and we wind up around #10.

[Steve9347]

Depends on the team, but I can imagine there might be a few teams up there that would be willing to swap picks if they were to get Gordon and we wind up around #10.

Yeah, a Gordon + 10 for the 4 would have to be considered at least.

[DutheDoduhon21]

BG might be back

Days after demurring when questioned on the same subject, Ben Gordon finally admitted he has considered signing the Chicago Bulls' one-year tender offer next summer and becoming an unrestricted free agent in the summer of 2009 according to the Chicago Tribune.

"I definitely didn't go out of my way and say something to the organization trying to threaten them, but it is an option," Gordon said Tuesday. "Luol [Deng] has that option. Most guys in my position have that option."

if he does sign the 1 year deal what are the chances he resigns with the bulls in 09?